Comments on: Judge Posner on Domestic Surveillance: No Threat To Civil Liberties http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/ Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:53:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9458 dmac Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:19:23 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9458 I don't think anyone could say that Kaus is anything but a moderate Liberal, but that pretty much describes most of my political leanings - except for the WOT. And isn't that pretty much what all these debates are really about? The Dem leadership really believes that this is just a criminal matter, while others believe that we're actually in a war for our lives. I don’t think anyone could say that Kaus is anything but a moderate Liberal, but that pretty much describes most of my political leanings – except for the WOT.

And isn’t that pretty much what all these debates are really about? The Dem leadership really believes that this is just a criminal matter, while others believe that we’re actually in a war for our lives.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9452 Mark Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:10:07 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9452 Well, I took a stand (at least an interim one) - I'm convinced that the actions were justified; I'm not convinced they were technically legal because they involved data-mining technologies that are not covered under FISA; therefore I fully expect hearings and further legal action, during which we may find out facts that would alter my perception. But I do think I've presented both sides...I'm a partisan supporter of George Bush, but I'm not a Republican operative or a sycophantic 'wingnut' (at least, not in my own eyes), and I've tried to calmly consider the issue and highlight good articles from each viewpoint. However, it shouldn't be surprising, since I make no claim of objectivity, that I would highlight articles that I think bolster my own interpretation. After all, I think Daily Kos, TPM, Eschaton, and Huff'n'Puff have got the other side covered pretty well... Well, I took a stand (at least an interim one) – I’m convinced that the actions were justified; I’m not convinced they were technically legal because they involved data-mining technologies that are not covered under FISA; therefore I fully expect hearings and further legal action, during which we may find out facts that would alter my perception.

But I do think I’ve presented both sides…I’m a partisan supporter of George Bush, but I’m not a Republican operative or a sycophantic ‘wingnut’ (at least, not in my own eyes), and I’ve tried to calmly consider the issue and highlight good articles from each viewpoint.

However, it shouldn’t be surprising, since I make no claim of objectivity, that I would highlight articles that I think bolster my own interpretation.

After all, I think Daily Kos, TPM, Eschaton, and Huff’n'Puff have got the other side covered pretty well…

]]> By: Fargus http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9451 Fargus Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:59:53 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9451 Mark, for one who presumably "hasn't taken a firm stand" on this wiretapping story, you're certainly presenting a lot of stuff from the folks who would either explain it away or minimize it, wouldn't you say? There's at least as many people, from both sides, saying some pretty different stuff than Kaus & Posner. Mark, for one who presumably “hasn’t taken a firm stand” on this wiretapping story, you’re certainly presenting a lot of stuff from the folks who would either explain it away or minimize it, wouldn’t you say? There’s at least as many people, from both sides, saying some pretty different stuff than Kaus & Posner.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9444 Mark Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:49:52 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9444 dmac, don't let it happen again! Seriously, though, regarding your Reid anecdote - why, one might even think he was changing his positions on a vital program for our national security to reflect the latest polling! (Of course, he's far, far too honorable for that, right?)... Say what you want about Bush - he's got the self-confidence to stick with an unpopular position, if he thinks it's the right thing to do... dmac, don’t let it happen again! Seriously, though, regarding your Reid anecdote – why, one might even think he was changing his positions on a vital program for our national security to reflect the latest polling! (Of course, he’s far, far too honorable for that, right?)…

Say what you want about Bush – he’s got the self-confidence to stick with an unpopular position, if he thinks it’s the right thing to do…

]]> By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9443 dmac Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:18:28 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9443 Whoops, sorry to post that first reference - already covered by Mark here. My apologies. Whoops, sorry to post that first reference – already covered by Mark here. My apologies.

]]> By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9442 dmac Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:05:18 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9442 Ryan - OK, if Posner's not your bag of tea, try some law professionals who are not GOP partisans by any means... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512210142dec21,0,3553632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed or - http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/12/about-those-wiretaps-and.html The judge worked for the Clinton administration, and Ann Althouse is a legal columnist for Slate. This is ultimately going to the Supreme Court, too many well - regarded opinions on both sides of the issue are cropping up. Ryan – OK, if Posner’s not your bag of tea, try some law professionals who are not GOP partisans by any means…

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512210142dec21,0,3553632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed

or –
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/12/about-those-wiretaps-and.html

The judge worked for the Clinton administration, and Ann Althouse is a legal columnist for Slate. This is ultimately going to the Supreme Court, too many well – regarded opinions on both sides of the issue are cropping up.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9441 Mark Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:56:01 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9441 Colin, I would just reiterate that I feel the President is fully justified, and I share your sentiments for the most part. However, we are a nation of laws and not men, as they say, so a legal framework, while it may not be the MOST important thing (that would be our security), is important....of course, from a philosophical standpoint, the security vs. liberty thing is very much open to debate, i.e., how far in each direction is permissable... Colin, I would just reiterate that I feel the President is fully justified, and I share your sentiments for the most part. However, we are a nation of laws and not men, as they say, so a legal framework, while it may not be the MOST important thing (that would be our security), is important….of course, from a philosophical standpoint, the security vs. liberty thing is very much open to debate, i.e., how far in each direction is permissable…

]]> By: Ryan Bonneville http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9439 Ryan Bonneville Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:17:08 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9439 One might worry that Posner is famous for being either brazenly utilitarian or just plain amoral. It's hard to take any moral argument from him too seriously. One might worry that Posner is famous for being either brazenly utilitarian or just plain amoral. It’s hard to take any moral argument from him too seriously.

]]> By: Colin http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9437 Colin Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:34:21 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9437 The article by John Schmitt, what John Hindraker at Powerline said, and what Andrew McCarthy and Mark Levin had to say about this issue is very heavy on the legal justifications of what the NSA did. They even cite Supreme Court cases. I hope that alleves your fears about the legality of what was done. I personally think the legal justifications are unimportant because if a president is going to be constrained simply by the current interpretation of the law instead of doing everything he possibly can, legal or not, to fufill his oath to defend this nation, I believe that he would be derelict in his duty. Someone who would have obeyed the law in this case would, in my humble opinion be derelict in their duty to the nation. Not chilling on this one, Mark. Not when it comes to the war. Not when it comes to political opportunists trying to hurt this nation so they can gain some political points at the President's expense. The article by John Schmitt, what John Hindraker at Powerline said, and what Andrew McCarthy and Mark Levin had to say about this issue is very heavy on the legal justifications of what the NSA did. They even cite Supreme Court cases. I hope that alleves your fears about the legality of what was done. I personally think the legal justifications are unimportant because if a president is going to be constrained simply by the current interpretation of the law instead of doing everything he possibly can, legal or not, to fufill his oath to defend this nation, I believe that he would be derelict in his duty. Someone who would have obeyed the law in this case would, in my humble opinion be derelict in their duty to the nation. Not chilling on this one, Mark. Not when it comes to the war. Not when it comes to political opportunists trying to hurt this nation so they can gain some political points at the President’s expense.

]]> By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/comment-page-1/#comment-9436 dmac Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:26:27 +0000 http://decision08.net/2005/12/21/judge-posner-on-domestic-surveillance-no-threat-to-civil-liberties/#comment-9436 Mark - couldn't find the link, but read that the latest CNN/Gallup poll said that 62% of Americans believe that the Patriot Act...doesn't go far enough. And did you notice that Reid, after bragging that he "killed" the bill, now is saying he will quickly reauthorize it, albeit with a few changes? So much for their threat of a filibuster - if they go through with it, there goes their chances in '06... This country really does need a credible opposition to the GOP, but how can anyone take this stuff seriously, when all the threats turn out to be empty posturing in the end? Mark – couldn’t find the link, but read that the latest CNN/Gallup poll said that 62% of Americans believe that the Patriot Act…doesn’t go far enough.

And did you notice that Reid, after bragging that he “killed” the bill, now is saying he will quickly reauthorize it, albeit with a few changes? So much for their threat of a filibuster – if they go through with it, there goes their chances in ’06…

This country really does need a credible opposition to the GOP, but how can anyone take this stuff seriously, when all the threats turn out to be empty posturing in the end?

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