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	<title>Comments on: Snoopgate: A Bigger Bust Than Fitzmas</title>
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	<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/</link>
	<description>Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9877</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9877</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Still, my main concern is that, going forward, legislation be introduced to update FISA for the 21st century…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The USA Patriot Act &lt;em&gt;did&lt;/em&gt; introduce significant modifications to FISA. If those were insufficient, the Administration has had 4 years to propose further modifications.

But that is not, I suspect, what this is about. It seems that the powers the Adminstration seeks would &lt;em&gt;never&lt;/em&gt; pass Constitutional muster and that, in the end, &lt;em&gt;that&#039;s&lt;/em&gt; why they decided to act without Congressional mandate, or Judicial oversight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Still, my main concern is that, going forward, legislation be introduced to update FISA for the 21st century…</p></blockquote>
<p>The USA Patriot Act <em>did</em> introduce significant modifications to FISA. If those were insufficient, the Administration has had 4 years to propose further modifications.</p>
<p>But that is not, I suspect, what this is about. It seems that the powers the Adminstration seeks would <em>never</em> pass Constitutional muster and that, in the end, <em>that&#8217;s</em> why they decided to act without Congressional mandate, or Judicial oversight.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9874</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9874</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;[A]re you then saying that articles of impeachment should be drafted and the process begun?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;em&gt;First&lt;/em&gt;, they need to hold hearings to investigate exactly &lt;em&gt;what&lt;/em&gt; the NSA was doing, and on what authority.

To be sure, since it took 4 years for the mere existence of the program to come to light, we probably don&#039;t know its full parameters, let alone what &lt;em&gt;other&lt;/em&gt; illegal activities may have been, similarly, initiated by Executive Order.

&lt;em&gt;Then&lt;/em&gt;, if the facts warrant, they need to bring Articles of Impeachment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[A]re you then saying that articles of impeachment should be drafted and the process begun?</p></blockquote>
<p><em>First</em>, they need to hold hearings to investigate exactly <em>what</em> the NSA was doing, and on what authority.</p>
<p>To be sure, since it took 4 years for the mere existence of the program to come to light, we probably don&#8217;t know its full parameters, let alone what <em>other</em> illegal activities may have been, similarly, initiated by Executive Order.</p>
<p><em>Then</em>, if the facts warrant, they need to bring Articles of Impeachment.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9872</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9872</guid>
		<description>Jacques, I think we&#039;re talking past each other here, but saying the same thing (probably because my comment was hopelessly muddled and ill-stated - absolutely, Congress holds hearings on these types of matters all the time).  If I wasn&#039;t clear, my question was: are you then saying that articles of impeachment should be drafted and the process begun? Because otherwise, I don&#039;t see that Congress can do anything of substance other than showboat...but you&#039;re correct that Supreme Court involvement would not be explicitly related to presidential wrongdoing, sorry for the sloppiness there...

I wouldn&#039;t be opposed to hearings that just delved into the matter more deeply, provided they were held in closed session if national security issues were discussed, as they certainly would be...

Still, my main concern is that, going forward, legislation be introduced to update FISA for the 21st century...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacques, I think we&#8217;re talking past each other here, but saying the same thing (probably because my comment was hopelessly muddled and ill-stated &#8211; absolutely, Congress holds hearings on these types of matters all the time).  If I wasn&#8217;t clear, my question was: are you then saying that articles of impeachment should be drafted and the process begun? Because otherwise, I don&#8217;t see that Congress can do anything of substance other than showboat&#8230;but you&#8217;re correct that Supreme Court involvement would not be explicitly related to presidential wrongdoing, sorry for the sloppiness there&#8230;</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be opposed to hearings that just delved into the matter more deeply, provided they were held in closed session if national security issues were discussed, as they certainly would be&#8230;</p>
<p>Still, my main concern is that, going forward, legislation be introduced to update FISA for the 21st century&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9871</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9871</guid>
		<description>Huh?

Congress holds hearings &lt;em&gt;all the time&lt;/em&gt; about potential illegal activities in this or that sphere.

And in the case of (alleged) Presidential wrongdoing, it is the Senate, not the Courts, which is charged with adjudicating the matter. That&#039;s why it is called an &quot;Impeachment &lt;em&gt;Trial&lt;/em&gt;&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh?</p>
<p>Congress holds hearings <em>all the time</em> about potential illegal activities in this or that sphere.</p>
<p>And in the case of (alleged) Presidential wrongdoing, it is the Senate, not the Courts, which is charged with adjudicating the matter. That&#8217;s why it is called an &#8220;Impeachment <em>Trial</em>&#8220;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9868</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9868</guid>
		<description>How do you propose to determine whether it was legal? Hearings on that? What&#039;s the difference between that and impeachment proceedings?  I don&#039;t think Congress can judge the legality of presidential actions outside of that process - and I assume there will be court cases brought that will reach the Supreme Court.  That&#039;s not ignoring, it&#039;s arguing the reality that unless impeachment proceedings are brought to the floor, the legality of past actions belongs in the judicial realm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you propose to determine whether it was legal? Hearings on that? What&#8217;s the difference between that and impeachment proceedings?  I don&#8217;t think Congress can judge the legality of presidential actions outside of that process &#8211; and I assume there will be court cases brought that will reach the Supreme Court.  That&#8217;s not ignoring, it&#8217;s arguing the reality that unless impeachment proceedings are brought to the floor, the legality of past actions belongs in the judicial realm&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9867</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9867</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;[T]he issue of whether it should be legal is seperate from whether it is,...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And, unless I misunderstand you, you propose to &lt;em&gt;entirely&lt;/em&gt; ignore the latter question, while holding hearings on the former.

Seems to me that that&#039;s not merely ignoring illegal activity, but actively encouraging it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;and George W. Bush won’t be in the White House forever&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Three years is a very long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[T]he issue of whether it should be legal is seperate from whether it is,&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>And, unless I misunderstand you, you propose to <em>entirely</em> ignore the latter question, while holding hearings on the former.</p>
<p>Seems to me that that&#8217;s not merely ignoring illegal activity, but actively encouraging it.</p>
<blockquote><p>and George W. Bush won’t be in the White House forever</p></blockquote>
<p>Three years is a very long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9866</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9866</guid>
		<description>Well, Jacques, my stance isn&#039;t quite as hypocritical as you make it sound; the issue of whether it should be legal is seperate from whether it is, and George W. Bush won&#039;t be in the White House forever (a fact I suspect you&#039;re grateful for).  What I&#039;m saying is take away the grey area, not just for retroactive justification (I don&#039;t think that&#039;s a good way to do things anyway) but for the future...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Jacques, my stance isn&#8217;t quite as hypocritical as you make it sound; the issue of whether it should be legal is seperate from whether it is, and George W. Bush won&#8217;t be in the White House forever (a fact I suspect you&#8217;re grateful for).  What I&#8217;m saying is take away the grey area, not just for retroactive justification (I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s a good way to do things anyway) but for the future&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9863</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9863</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;That having been said, I really do wish Congress would address the issue with new legislation of some sort, so that the parameters can be debated and set...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Four years after this program of large-scale illegal wiretapping was initiated, &lt;em&gt;now&lt;/em&gt; you want Congress to consider legislation to (retroactively) legalize the practice? If anyone in the Administration had the &lt;em&gt;slightest&lt;/em&gt; interest in maintaining the rule of law, why weren&#039;t they proposing  amending FISA, or new legislation to cover this NSA eavesdropping, &lt;em&gt;years ago&lt;/em&gt;?

[Under the &quot;Yoo Doctrine,&quot; of course, no such legislation is required: the President has unlimited powers during wartime and can do whatever the heck he wants. Conveniently, the War on Terror will last forever, or until a Democratic President is elected, whichever comes first.]

Yes, there should be Congressional Hearings. To determine, definitively, whether the President acted illegally (it &lt;em&gt;sure&lt;/em&gt; looks that way, but IANAL). And if he did, impeachment proceedings should follow.

If a Democrat were in the White House, you would be demanding no less...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>That having been said, I really do wish Congress would address the issue with new legislation of some sort, so that the parameters can be debated and set&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Four years after this program of large-scale illegal wiretapping was initiated, <em>now</em> you want Congress to consider legislation to (retroactively) legalize the practice? If anyone in the Administration had the <em>slightest</em> interest in maintaining the rule of law, why weren&#8217;t they proposing  amending FISA, or new legislation to cover this NSA eavesdropping, <em>years ago</em>?</p>
<p>[Under the "Yoo Doctrine," of course, no such legislation is required: the President has unlimited powers during wartime and can do whatever the heck he wants. Conveniently, the War on Terror will last forever, or until a Democratic President is elected, whichever comes first.]</p>
<p>Yes, there should be Congressional Hearings. To determine, definitively, whether the President acted illegally (it <em>sure</em> looks that way, but IANAL). And if he did, impeachment proceedings should follow.</p>
<p>If a Democrat were in the White House, you would be demanding no less&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Decision &#8216;08 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Skepticism on &#8216;Warrantless&#8217; Poll Unwarranted?</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9816</link>
		<dc:creator>Decision &#8216;08 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Skepticism on &#8216;Warrantless&#8217; Poll Unwarranted?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9816</guid>
		<description>[...] All kinds of good stuff continues to come out from both sides of the aisle on the Rasmussen poll we&#8217;ve discussed previously. Here are a couple of good ones from opposite sides of the aisle:Jeff Goldstein has a lengthy post up examining some of the assumptions behind the questioning of the poll&#8217;s wording; Glenn Greenwald finds it to be &#8220;[o]ne of the most absurdly formulated polls ever&#8221;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] All kinds of good stuff continues to come out from both sides of the aisle on the Rasmussen poll we&#8217;ve discussed previously. Here are a couple of good ones from opposite sides of the aisle:Jeff Goldstein has a lengthy post up examining some of the assumptions behind the questioning of the poll&#8217;s wording; Glenn Greenwald finds it to be &#8220;[o]ne of the most absurdly formulated polls ever&#8221;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/comment-page-1/#comment-9813</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2005/12/28/snoopgate-a-bigger-bust-than-fitzmas/#comment-9813</guid>
		<description>Dude, I&#039;m not twisting the poll around - if you haven&#039;t noticed, the &#039;warrantless&#039; aspect is covered all over the place here! In fact, I&#039;ve just linked to Greenwald - you&#039;ll have to look elsewhere to find your scapegoat...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude, I&#8217;m not twisting the poll around &#8211; if you haven&#8217;t noticed, the &#8216;warrantless&#8217; aspect is covered all over the place here! In fact, I&#8217;ve just linked to Greenwald &#8211; you&#8217;ll have to look elsewhere to find your scapegoat&#8230;</p>
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