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	<title>Comments on: Responding To Greenwald &#8211; Again</title>
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	<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/</link>
	<description>Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Decision &#8216;08 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The New York Times Continues To Channel Mother Jones</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11795</link>
		<dc:creator>Decision &#8216;08 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The New York Times Continues To Channel Mother Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11795</guid>
		<description>[...] In a typically classless move, the Times appropriates the &#8216;Greenwald Dewine Postulate&#8217; without proper credit, as well: In 2002, a Republican senator — Mike DeWine of Ohio — introduced a bill that would have &#8230;[lowered] the standard for issuing a warrant from probable cause to &#8220;reasonable suspicion&#8221; for a &#8220;non-United States person.&#8221; But the Justice Department opposed it, saying the change raised &#8220;both significant legal and practical issues&#8221; and may have been unconstitutional. Now, the president and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales are telling Americans that reasonable suspicion is a perfectly fine standard for spying on Americans as well as non-Americans — and they are the sole judges of what is reasonable. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In a typically classless move, the Times appropriates the &#8216;Greenwald Dewine Postulate&#8217; without proper credit, as well: In 2002, a Republican senator — Mike DeWine of Ohio — introduced a bill that would have &#8230;[lowered] the standard for issuing a warrant from probable cause to &#8220;reasonable suspicion&#8221; for a &#8220;non-United States person.&#8221; But the Justice Department opposed it, saying the change raised &#8220;both significant legal and practical issues&#8221; and may have been unconstitutional. Now, the president and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales are telling Americans that reasonable suspicion is a perfectly fine standard for spying on Americans as well as non-Americans — and they are the sole judges of what is reasonable. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11679</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11679</guid>
		<description>Hey, thanks for coming by...it was fun to see so many new faces...hope you&#039;ll grace us with your presence more often...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, thanks for coming by&#8230;it was fun to see so many new faces&#8230;hope you&#8217;ll grace us with your presence more often&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11678</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11678</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mark.  I had it wrong.  I must of been thinking of another position.  Great blog!  Keep up the good work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mark.  I had it wrong.  I must of been thinking of another position.  Great blog!  Keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11617</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11617</guid>
		<description>Mark:  Eliot Richardson thought independently, decided that he was being asked to do something unconstitutional, and he resigned rather than do it.  Perhaps I don’t give Gonzales enough credit – maybe he really thinks that what Bush did is OK – but my suspicion is that he is a lawyer being a hired gun for his clien, rather than a principled Attorney General who swore to preserve and protect the Constitution.  Apparently, even John Ashcroft has problems with the NSA program – that should tell you something.

For what it’s worth, I spoke with our General Counsel today, who studied national security law at Yale (and is a rock-ribbed Republican).  He thinks the NSA program is “deeply troubling” and thinks that Bush’s expansive definition of executive powers is well beyond any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark:  Eliot Richardson thought independently, decided that he was being asked to do something unconstitutional, and he resigned rather than do it.  Perhaps I don’t give Gonzales enough credit – maybe he really thinks that what Bush did is OK – but my suspicion is that he is a lawyer being a hired gun for his clien, rather than a principled Attorney General who swore to preserve and protect the Constitution.  Apparently, even John Ashcroft has problems with the NSA program – that should tell you something.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I spoke with our General Counsel today, who studied national security law at Yale (and is a rock-ribbed Republican).  He thinks the NSA program is “deeply troubling” and thinks that Bush’s expansive definition of executive powers is well beyond any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11609</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11609</guid>
		<description>Dan, I refer you to my newest post on why not FISA? - it&#039;s the wrong question.  The question is, why not address the authorities the president has claimed, rather than those that he says with his own mouth he is not relying on?

As to American as a battlefield, well, surely you remember that day when war came to our shores? It would be difficult to forget...

(Btw, Bush explicity, umambigiously said torture is not and will not be permitted in his press conference today)...

&lt;a href=&quot;http://decision08.net/2006/01/26/shooting-down-the-fisa-smokescreen/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Read on, if you please...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, I refer you to my newest post on why not FISA? &#8211; it&#8217;s the wrong question.  The question is, why not address the authorities the president has claimed, rather than those that he says with his own mouth he is not relying on?</p>
<p>As to American as a battlefield, well, surely you remember that day when war came to our shores? It would be difficult to forget&#8230;</p>
<p>(Btw, Bush explicity, umambigiously said torture is not and will not be permitted in his press conference today)&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://decision08.net/2006/01/26/shooting-down-the-fisa-smokescreen/" rel="nofollow">Read on, if you please&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Lewis</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11608</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11608</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;the communications in question have a known or suspected al Qaeda suspect on one end of the line&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Al-Qaeda on the line? That&#039;s probable cause, right? Sounds like it should be easy to get a FISA warrant. So again, why not use FISA?

&lt;i&gt;&quot;we’re talking Signals Intelligence here, a well-established complement to battlefield operations&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

It is quite scary to imply that America is a battlefield in any but a weak metaphorical sense. War is peace, right? I am unaware of battlefield operations underway in America, so perhaps you could provide a reference. I understand Jose Padilla recently changed custody so the Administration wouldn&#039;t have to make this argument in front of the Supreme Court.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Now, we’ve got upcoming Congressional hearings, which can go into secret session if need be to discuss details, we’ve got a lawsuit, we’ve got news outlets, we’ve got partisans like you and me…how many of these things would be true if we were really living under some autocratic police state? I’ll tell you what happens if you criticize Vladimar Putin too persistently - you get thrown in jail, even if you’re one of the biggest businessmen in Russia.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

The distance between what Putin did and what Bush can do is smaller than you think. Imagine what would happen if X-Democrat-Billionaire was declared an enemy combatant. That&#039;s right, he&#039;d go to Guantanamo like the rest of them.

Like Sen. Graham, R-S.C., said, can&#039;t you just waive any statute on the books? You could kill a Muslim prisoner with a hammer or expose yourself during the State of the Union address. To distract and discourage our terrorist enemies, of course.

That last little rider, that &quot;of course&quot;, is what we are arguing about, right? At some point, we have to say that the President&#039;s authority is not as expansive as he makes it out to be. I use the extreme examples not to be offensive, but to point out that under your theory of Presidential power (and, I&#039;m convinced, George W. Bush&#039;s), if Bush says it&#039;s for the War on Terror, then it is.

And let me add that &quot;well, sure, it&#039;s bad, but at least it&#039;s not a police state... yet&quot; is not a terribly persuasive argument.

What is the Congress? What is the legislative power? What is the Constitution? The way I see it, your dueling interpretation is deeply linked to &quot;Bush giveth and Bush taketh away.&quot; So what gives? Can the President torture prisoners in defiance of a &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/mccain_text.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quite explicit law&lt;/a&gt; passed by Congress?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;the communications in question have a known or suspected al Qaeda suspect on one end of the line&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Al-Qaeda on the line? That&#8217;s probable cause, right? Sounds like it should be easy to get a FISA warrant. So again, why not use FISA?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;we’re talking Signals Intelligence here, a well-established complement to battlefield operations&#8221;</i></p>
<p>It is quite scary to imply that America is a battlefield in any but a weak metaphorical sense. War is peace, right? I am unaware of battlefield operations underway in America, so perhaps you could provide a reference. I understand Jose Padilla recently changed custody so the Administration wouldn&#8217;t have to make this argument in front of the Supreme Court.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Now, we’ve got upcoming Congressional hearings, which can go into secret session if need be to discuss details, we’ve got a lawsuit, we’ve got news outlets, we’ve got partisans like you and me…how many of these things would be true if we were really living under some autocratic police state? I’ll tell you what happens if you criticize Vladimar Putin too persistently &#8211; you get thrown in jail, even if you’re one of the biggest businessmen in Russia.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>The distance between what Putin did and what Bush can do is smaller than you think. Imagine what would happen if X-Democrat-Billionaire was declared an enemy combatant. That&#8217;s right, he&#8217;d go to Guantanamo like the rest of them.</p>
<p>Like Sen. Graham, R-S.C., said, can&#8217;t you just waive any statute on the books? You could kill a Muslim prisoner with a hammer or expose yourself during the State of the Union address. To distract and discourage our terrorist enemies, of course.</p>
<p>That last little rider, that &#8220;of course&#8221;, is what we are arguing about, right? At some point, we have to say that the President&#8217;s authority is not as expansive as he makes it out to be. I use the extreme examples not to be offensive, but to point out that under your theory of Presidential power (and, I&#8217;m convinced, George W. Bush&#8217;s), if Bush says it&#8217;s for the War on Terror, then it is.</p>
<p>And let me add that &#8220;well, sure, it&#8217;s bad, but at least it&#8217;s not a police state&#8230; yet&#8221; is not a terribly persuasive argument.</p>
<p>What is the Congress? What is the legislative power? What is the Constitution? The way I see it, your dueling interpretation is deeply linked to &#8220;Bush giveth and Bush taketh away.&#8221; So what gives? Can the President torture prisoners in defiance of a <a HREF="http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/mccain_text.html" rel="nofollow">quite explicit law</a> passed by Congress?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11607</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11607</guid>
		<description>peter, how so?  Gonzales is arguing that the program is legal, and that is the advice he gave Bush...it would certainly be odd to opine that something is completely legal, and then resign for that reason...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>peter, how so?  Gonzales is arguing that the program is legal, and that is the advice he gave Bush&#8230;it would certainly be odd to opine that something is completely legal, and then resign for that reason&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11605</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11605</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a pity that Gonzales doesn&#039;t meet the same standards as Eliot Richardson, who resigned his post as AG rather than support Nixon is his illegal use of wiretaps and surveillance...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a pity that Gonzales doesn&#8217;t meet the same standards as Eliot Richardson, who resigned his post as AG rather than support Nixon is his illegal use of wiretaps and surveillance&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11603</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11603</guid>
		<description>Christine, from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/foia.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Department of Justice website&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;em&gt;The Attorney General is responsible for the overall supervision and direction of the administration and operation of the Department. The Attorney General represents the United States in legal matters generally and furnishes advice and opinions on legal matters to the President, the Cabinet, heads of the executive departments, and other agencies of the Federal Government. Records maintained include those relating to the administration of the office.&lt;/em&gt;

You may disagree with him (clearly you do), but the man is only doing his job...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christine, from <a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/foia.htm" rel="nofollow">the Department of Justice website</a>:</p>
<p><em>The Attorney General is responsible for the overall supervision and direction of the administration and operation of the Department. The Attorney General represents the United States in legal matters generally and furnishes advice and opinions on legal matters to the President, the Cabinet, heads of the executive departments, and other agencies of the Federal Government. Records maintained include those relating to the administration of the office.</em></p>
<p>You may disagree with him (clearly you do), but the man is only doing his job&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/comment-page-2/#comment-11600</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/25/responding-to-greenwald-again/#comment-11600</guid>
		<description>I understand the argument that so and so did it in this war or that, but the FISA was passed AFTER those wars.  Why would the AG bring that up?  And I would also like to know who the AG is supposed to represent.  I thought he was the one who is supposed to investigate the administration if there was any wrong doing.  He seems to be acting as their private attorney.  Where the hell are the people who are supposed to represent us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the argument that so and so did it in this war or that, but the FISA was passed AFTER those wars.  Why would the AG bring that up?  And I would also like to know who the AG is supposed to represent.  I thought he was the one who is supposed to investigate the administration if there was any wrong doing.  He seems to be acting as their private attorney.  Where the hell are the people who are supposed to represent us?</p>
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