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	<title>Comments on: Ahh, The Vision Begins to Return</title>
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	<description>Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/comment-page-1/#comment-11886</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, I don&#039;t know that I know the answer, but I find the argument (not necessarily yours, but one that&#039;s been pretty prevalent lately) that the FISA warrants were easily obtainable to be pretty unbelievable - why did we go and get thousands of them, and then just lazily skip a few very, very important ones?  There has to be more to it than that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don&#8217;t know that I know the answer, but I find the argument (not necessarily yours, but one that&#8217;s been pretty prevalent lately) that the FISA warrants were easily obtainable to be pretty unbelievable &#8211; why did we go and get thousands of them, and then just lazily skip a few very, very important ones?  There has to be more to it than that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/comment-page-1/#comment-11885</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t think they are stupid -- but I find it hard to believe that they identified people in the US as Al Qaeda suspects and left them alone for the sole reason that &quot;they were (afraid) of being accused of domestic spying.&quot;

The FISA Court has apparently granted over 99% of the warrants which were requested -- there is certainly probable cause -- what&#039;s to stop them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think they are stupid &#8212; but I find it hard to believe that they identified people in the US as Al Qaeda suspects and left them alone for the sole reason that &#8220;they were (afraid) of being accused of domestic spying.&#8221;</p>
<p>The FISA Court has apparently granted over 99% of the warrants which were requested &#8212; there is certainly probable cause &#8212; what&#8217;s to stop them?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/comment-page-1/#comment-11882</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/#comment-11882</guid>
		<description>peter, I must question your assumption that the professionals in the NSA and FBI are so stupid (maybe you wouldn&#039;t put it that way, but that&#039;s the implication) that they wouldn&#039;t just go get one of these &#039;get-out-of-jail-free&#039; FISA warrants that were apparently being handed out like candy.  If the NSA didn&#039;t wiretap the San Diego hijackers out of fear of being accused of domestic spying, it was because of excessive restraints on their operations pre-9/11 - and that&#039;s the whole point of the WSJ editorial...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>peter, I must question your assumption that the professionals in the NSA and FBI are so stupid (maybe you wouldn&#8217;t put it that way, but that&#8217;s the implication) that they wouldn&#8217;t just go get one of these &#8216;get-out-of-jail-free&#8217; FISA warrants that were apparently being handed out like candy.  If the NSA didn&#8217;t wiretap the San Diego hijackers out of fear of being accused of domestic spying, it was because of excessive restraints on their operations pre-9/11 &#8211; and that&#8217;s the whole point of the WSJ editorial&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/comment-page-1/#comment-11880</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/#comment-11880</guid>
		<description>The Wall Street Journal piece is fatuous.

1)	The Journal typically combs over the bald spots in its arguments with ad hominem diversions.  For example, when you start a sentence with “the media, mouthing phrases like ‘Article II authority,’ “  you have dismissed the opposing arguments without bothering to say why they are purportedly wrong.   The implication is that the media don’t know what they are talking about because they are only mouthing phrases.  The Journal never says why Article II is not relevant – there is no substance to their argument besides insult.

2)	The statement that the media &quot;are presenting the issues as if politics have nothing to do with what is driving the subject matter” is similarly incorrect, for several reasons:
a.	Of course politics plays a role in the subject matter.  Politics plays a role in health care, Social Security, defense appropriations, and everything else that the government does.  Moreover, the politics of the situation have been discussed exhaustively in the media.  So what exactly is their point?
b.	The clear implication is that politics is the primary driving force of media coverage.  Well, no.  The President is in apparent violation of the law, the wiretap program is larger than anybody knew, and there are lawsuits and committee hearings galore.  These are real, substantive news stories which should be written about, regardless of whether or not there are political elements to the story.  There were political elements in Ken Starr’s investigation – does the Journal suggest that this story shouldn’t have been covered either?  Or that it is somehow less newsworthy because politics were involved?
c.	The other implication is that this is a partisan issue with Democrats on one side and Republicans on the other.  Given the number of Republicans who have expressed serious concerns about the NSA program, the implication is clearly false.

3)	The rest of the excerpt also makes no sense.  It mentions that some of the 9/11 hijackers made or received international calls, but doesn’t say what stopped the NSA from eavesdropping on the calls.  (Certainly not FISA – they could have listened all they wanted, as any FISA judge would certainly have issued a warrant).  It states that the NSA didn’t wiretap the San Diego hijackers because the NSA feared “it would be accused of domestic spying.”  Again, any judge would have issued a warrant.  (If the issue is limitations on what the NSA can do domestically:  these aren’t issues for the FBI.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Wall Street Journal piece is fatuous.</p>
<p>1)	The Journal typically combs over the bald spots in its arguments with ad hominem diversions.  For example, when you start a sentence with “the media, mouthing phrases like ‘Article II authority,’ “  you have dismissed the opposing arguments without bothering to say why they are purportedly wrong.   The implication is that the media don’t know what they are talking about because they are only mouthing phrases.  The Journal never says why Article II is not relevant – there is no substance to their argument besides insult.</p>
<p>2)	The statement that the media &#8220;are presenting the issues as if politics have nothing to do with what is driving the subject matter” is similarly incorrect, for several reasons:<br />
a.	Of course politics plays a role in the subject matter.  Politics plays a role in health care, Social Security, defense appropriations, and everything else that the government does.  Moreover, the politics of the situation have been discussed exhaustively in the media.  So what exactly is their point?<br />
b.	The clear implication is that politics is the primary driving force of media coverage.  Well, no.  The President is in apparent violation of the law, the wiretap program is larger than anybody knew, and there are lawsuits and committee hearings galore.  These are real, substantive news stories which should be written about, regardless of whether or not there are political elements to the story.  There were political elements in Ken Starr’s investigation – does the Journal suggest that this story shouldn’t have been covered either?  Or that it is somehow less newsworthy because politics were involved?<br />
c.	The other implication is that this is a partisan issue with Democrats on one side and Republicans on the other.  Given the number of Republicans who have expressed serious concerns about the NSA program, the implication is clearly false.</p>
<p>3)	The rest of the excerpt also makes no sense.  It mentions that some of the 9/11 hijackers made or received international calls, but doesn’t say what stopped the NSA from eavesdropping on the calls.  (Certainly not FISA – they could have listened all they wanted, as any FISA judge would certainly have issued a warrant).  It states that the NSA didn’t wiretap the San Diego hijackers because the NSA feared “it would be accused of domestic spying.”  Again, any judge would have issued a warrant.  (If the issue is limitations on what the NSA can do domestically:  these aren’t issues for the FBI.)</p>
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		<title>By: Muffin the Cat</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/01/30/ahh-the-vision-begins-to-return/comment-page-1/#comment-11879</link>
		<dc:creator>Muffin the Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>So ABC didn&#039;t even mention to cloture vote even though it was done by the end of their broadcast.  And some wonder why I have become very cynical towards the media.  Can we say agenda.  P-I-T-I-F-U-L.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So ABC didn&#8217;t even mention to cloture vote even though it was done by the end of their broadcast.  And some wonder why I have become very cynical towards the media.  Can we say agenda.  P-I-T-I-F-U-L.</p>
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