Comments on: David Does The Denial Dance http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/ Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree Sat, 07 Apr 2012 09:00:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13099 dmac Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:26:59 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13099 Good points, and I have seen similar arguments for the hate speech law's eradication from our courts. Good points, and I have seen similar arguments for the hate speech law’s eradication from our courts.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13095 Mark Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:18:06 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13095 I dunno, dmac...they're certainly troubling...I used to work in the Crime Records division of the Texas Department of Public Safety, and one of the things that always bugged me was Hate Crime enhancement bills - i.e., you assault someone for racial reasons or for sexual orientation, etc., and you get a worse punishment...the questions I always had were aren't all (well, most) violent crimes hate crimes in one way or another, and does the person assaulted feel any better about it knowing that it wasn't hate-related? I don't have the answers...but I think people like Irvin should be vigorously debated and challenged at every turn - but not by law enforcement. The truth of the Holocaust only needs, as you point out, informed witnesses who know how to combat the deniers' arguments...truth needs no protection, it will always win in the end. Or, as I may have read once: "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"... I dunno, dmac…they’re certainly troubling…I used to work in the Crime Records division of the Texas Department of Public Safety, and one of the things that always bugged me was Hate Crime enhancement bills – i.e., you assault someone for racial reasons or for sexual orientation, etc., and you get a worse punishment…the questions I always had were aren’t all (well, most) violent crimes hate crimes in one way or another, and does the person assaulted feel any better about it knowing that it wasn’t hate-related?

I don’t have the answers…but I think people like Irvin should be vigorously debated and challenged at every turn – but not by law enforcement. The truth of the Holocaust only needs, as you point out, informed witnesses who know how to combat the deniers’ arguments…truth needs no protection, it will always win in the end.

Or, as I may have read once: “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free”…

]]> By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13094 dmac Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:03:38 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13094 Good question, Clint (and of course, Mark), and the simple answer is I can't make the distinction. But a country's relatively recent history with genocide may provoke it into the enactment of ill - considered hate speech laws, no matter how well - intended. Eisenhower had it right at the beginning of the discovery of the camps - he said to make sure that we filmed all of it, down to every last shred of evidence, because he knew that deniers would be springing up almost from the day we left. No question that the laws are antiquated at this point (and should be repealed), but it's understandable why they were enacted, given the context of events at the time. I still believe that the aforementioned person was looking to get into trouble for his comments, and he got what he wanted (albeit eventually). Here's a question for you at this point: do you believe that all hate speech laws are inherently unconstitutional? Good question, Clint (and of course, Mark), and the simple answer is I can’t make the distinction. But a country’s relatively recent history with genocide may provoke it into the enactment of ill – considered hate speech laws, no matter how well – intended.

Eisenhower had it right at the beginning of the discovery of the camps – he said to make sure that we filmed all of it, down to every last shred of evidence, because he knew that deniers would be springing up almost from the day we left. No question that the laws are antiquated at this point (and should be repealed), but it’s understandable why they were enacted, given the context of events at the time. I still believe that the aforementioned person was looking to get into trouble for his comments, and he got what he wanted (albeit eventually).

Here’s a question for you at this point: do you believe that all hate speech laws are inherently unconstitutional?

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13090 Mark Tue, 21 Feb 2006 02:28:56 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13090 Clint, well said - and exactly the reason, though I hate Holocaust denial with every fiber of my body - that I can't get excited about this outcome... Clint, well said – and exactly the reason, though I hate Holocaust denial with every fiber of my body – that I can’t get excited about this outcome…

]]> By: Clint http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13085 Clint Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:03:29 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13085 While I understand the sentiment behind this law, it's a terrible law. Dmac- How do you distinguish Holocaust denial from disparaging cartoons of Mohammed, or counterfactual assertions that Mohammed conquered ? Seen from the point of view of an outraged Palestinian protestor, several countries in Europe have laws making it a crime to say things Jews are outraged by (like denying the Holocaust) but protect speech that Muslims are outraged by. That's a blatant double standard. Can you honestly say that this hypothetical protestor would be mistaken?? While I understand the sentiment behind this law, it’s a terrible law.

Dmac- How do you distinguish Holocaust denial from disparaging cartoons of Mohammed, or counterfactual assertions that Mohammed conquered ?

Seen from the point of view of an outraged Palestinian protestor, several countries in Europe have laws making it a crime to say things Jews are outraged by (like denying the Holocaust) but protect speech that Muslims are outraged by. That’s a blatant double standard.

Can you honestly say that this hypothetical protestor would be mistaken??

]]> By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13078 dmac Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:30:33 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13078 It is a blow for free speech, but what he's said in the past comes close to the limitations on someone yelling "fire" in an enclosed area and then admitting that they were just kidding around. Countries like Austria (and Germany?) have good reasons to have such laws on their books, since the Holocaust denial movements began during the Nuremberg trials. "The Odessa File" got much of it's source material from the burgeoning Nazi organizations that sprung up after the war in Germany and Austria, and operated in almost total secrecy for the better part of 20+ years. He also knew exactly the risks he was taking when he made such statements, so ignorance of the law is no excuse here as well. It is a blow for free speech, but what he’s said in the past comes close to the limitations on someone yelling “fire” in an enclosed area and then admitting that they were just kidding around.

Countries like Austria (and Germany?) have good reasons to have such laws on their books, since the Holocaust denial movements began during the Nuremberg trials. “The Odessa File” got much of it’s source material from the burgeoning Nazi organizations that sprung up after the war in Germany and Austria, and operated in almost total secrecy for the better part of 20+ years.

He also knew exactly the risks he was taking when he made such statements, so ignorance of the law is no excuse here as well.

]]> By: too many steves http://informedspeculation.com/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-13077 too many steves Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:29:17 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/02/20/david-does-the-denial-dance/#comment-13077 Probably still believes there was no Holocaust too. Probably still believes there was no Holocaust too.

]]>