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	<title>Comments on: Did Bush Authorize Efforts To Discredit Joe Wilson?</title>
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	<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/</link>
	<description>Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-16141</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-16141</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t have access to the internet last week. I doubt anyone will read this, but I&#039;ll go ahead and post it anyway.

The facts:

1. Valerie Plame was an employee of the CIA.

2. Valerie Plame was living in the United States.

3. It is illegal for the CIA to conduct intelligence operations in the US.

Thus, if Valerie Plame was spying on someone or living under an assumed identity (meaning of &quot;covert&quot;), then she was doing it for someone other than the US.

If anything is irrelevant it is Novak&#039;s old-time friendship with Rove.

IT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER THAT A CRITIC OF THE WAR WOULD CONSPIRE TO PUNISH ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL FOR CRITICIZING THE WAR.
Sorry to yell, but you just seem to ignore all of the logical fallacies in your arguments when I point them out, so I&#039;ll just keep repeating them until you can explain them or admit to the flawed logic.

Another logical fallacy you ignore; here comes the shouting again: YOU SAID THE CIA WAS IMPRESSED BY JOE WILSON&#039;S CREDENTIALS, CITING THE PRAISE HE RECEIVED FROM GEORGE HW BUSH IN 1991 FOR HIS PROTECTION OF THE US EMBASSY IN IRAQ AS &quot;HIS CREDENTIALS.&quot; HIS EXPERIENCE AS A DIPLOMAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS ABILITIES TO CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION. FIND A REASON, OTHER THAN NEPOTISM, THAT THE CIA WOULD HAVE SENT WILSON TO NIGER. IF YOU CAN PROVIDE NONE, THEN ADMIT IT WAS NEPOTISM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t have access to the internet last week. I doubt anyone will read this, but I&#8217;ll go ahead and post it anyway.</p>
<p>The facts:</p>
<p>1. Valerie Plame was an employee of the CIA.</p>
<p>2. Valerie Plame was living in the United States.</p>
<p>3. It is illegal for the CIA to conduct intelligence operations in the US.</p>
<p>Thus, if Valerie Plame was spying on someone or living under an assumed identity (meaning of &#8220;covert&#8221;), then she was doing it for someone other than the US.</p>
<p>If anything is irrelevant it is Novak&#8217;s old-time friendship with Rove.</p>
<p>IT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER THAT A CRITIC OF THE WAR WOULD CONSPIRE TO PUNISH ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL FOR CRITICIZING THE WAR.<br />
Sorry to yell, but you just seem to ignore all of the logical fallacies in your arguments when I point them out, so I&#8217;ll just keep repeating them until you can explain them or admit to the flawed logic.</p>
<p>Another logical fallacy you ignore; here comes the shouting again: YOU SAID THE CIA WAS IMPRESSED BY JOE WILSON&#8217;S CREDENTIALS, CITING THE PRAISE HE RECEIVED FROM GEORGE HW BUSH IN 1991 FOR HIS PROTECTION OF THE US EMBASSY IN IRAQ AS &#8220;HIS CREDENTIALS.&#8221; HIS EXPERIENCE AS A DIPLOMAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS ABILITIES TO CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION. FIND A REASON, OTHER THAN NEPOTISM, THAT THE CIA WOULD HAVE SENT WILSON TO NIGER. IF YOU CAN PROVIDE NONE, THEN ADMIT IT WAS NEPOTISM.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15552</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 22:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15552</guid>
		<description>good deal, thx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good deal, thx</p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15551</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15551</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, Peter. And...thanks for the link!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, Peter. And&#8230;thanks for the link!</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15549</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15549</guid>
		<description>Since the war began, 86 journalists and media assistants have been killed, and 38 have been abducted (of whom five are now dead).  This is about two dozen more than died in the entire VietNam war.  It is certainly possible that the death rate among journalists exceeds the death rate of the military.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16793

I don’t know how many of them were killed in the Green Zone (actually the issue was hotel balconies, but no matter).  Out of 86 dead journalists, it is certainly reasonable to assume that the bulk of them were killed outside the Green Zone, which supposedly is safer than outside the Zone.  However, this is a distinction without a difference.  Given the enormous personal sacrifice of journalists serving in Iraq, I think it is offensive to imply that reporting is limited to reporters working from their hotel room balconies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the war began, 86 journalists and media assistants have been killed, and 38 have been abducted (of whom five are now dead).  This is about two dozen more than died in the entire VietNam war.  It is certainly possible that the death rate among journalists exceeds the death rate of the military.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16793" rel="nofollow">http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16793</a></p>
<p>I don’t know how many of them were killed in the Green Zone (actually the issue was hotel balconies, but no matter).  Out of 86 dead journalists, it is certainly reasonable to assume that the bulk of them were killed outside the Green Zone, which supposedly is safer than outside the Zone.  However, this is a distinction without a difference.  Given the enormous personal sacrifice of journalists serving in Iraq, I think it is offensive to imply that reporting is limited to reporters working from their hotel room balconies.</p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15547</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15547</guid>
		<description>&quot;The meme that “reporters report from their hotel balconies and don’t report the facts” is a bunch of crap.&quot; 

Yet again, this unprovable statement begats another question - your supposition that because reporters are &quot;getting abducted and murdered&quot; is absolutely no evidence that they&#039;re actually reporting from anywhere else but within the Green Zone. This is what you cite as evidence?   

And what are you talking about in reference to the Journal and the Economist? I subscribe to both, but have seen no solid evidence in either pub that correlates to your claims here.

Again, no cites, no evidence - just rants and ravings. You do not seek to persuade in your arguments on this matter - only to vent your considerable spleen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The meme that “reporters report from their hotel balconies and don’t report the facts” is a bunch of crap.&#8221; </p>
<p>Yet again, this unprovable statement begats another question &#8211; your supposition that because reporters are &#8220;getting abducted and murdered&#8221; is absolutely no evidence that they&#8217;re actually reporting from anywhere else but within the Green Zone. This is what you cite as evidence?   </p>
<p>And what are you talking about in reference to the Journal and the Economist? I subscribe to both, but have seen no solid evidence in either pub that correlates to your claims here.</p>
<p>Again, no cites, no evidence &#8211; just rants and ravings. You do not seek to persuade in your arguments on this matter &#8211; only to vent your considerable spleen.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15532</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15532</guid>
		<description>1)	How many reporters have died or been seriously injured thus far covering Iraq?  Three dozen?  Four dozen?  How many have been abducted?  The meme that “reporters report from their hotel balconies and don’t report the facts” is a bunch of crap.

2)	If the “one person” you refer to is Allawi, then I think his word has some credibility.  If you mean journalists, then I can tell you that the reporting in the Journal and the Economist (hardly liberal media) aligns with the reports in the Times.

3)	I don’t know who Omar is, but unless you think the daily reporting is fabricated (how many people died today?  Fifty?), the facts speak for themselves.  If Allawi’s figure of fifty to sixty deaths every day is accurate, then it’s the equivalent (based on Iraq’s population size) of an Iraqi 9/11 every six days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1)	How many reporters have died or been seriously injured thus far covering Iraq?  Three dozen?  Four dozen?  How many have been abducted?  The meme that “reporters report from their hotel balconies and don’t report the facts” is a bunch of crap.</p>
<p>2)	If the “one person” you refer to is Allawi, then I think his word has some credibility.  If you mean journalists, then I can tell you that the reporting in the Journal and the Economist (hardly liberal media) aligns with the reports in the Times.</p>
<p>3)	I don’t know who Omar is, but unless you think the daily reporting is fabricated (how many people died today?  Fifty?), the facts speak for themselves.  If Allawi’s figure of fifty to sixty deaths every day is accurate, then it’s the equivalent (based on Iraq’s population size) of an Iraqi 9/11 every six days.</p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15527</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15527</guid>
		<description>Sure - &quot;news reports&quot; that are generated entirely from reporter&#039;s acute observations from their hotel rooms, which of course are located within the Green Triangle. You&#039;re now trafficking in innuendo and heresay.   

Then you go on to use ONE comment from ONE person to support your &quot;eyewitness accounts.&quot; Congrats, Peter - your new reporter&#039;s job at the NYT is ready for your immediate occupation. 

Have you even bothered to read Omar the Iraq Model&#039;s blog? There are countless others, where you read both the good and the bad that&#039;s currently going on in the country, reported by regular citizens trying to get on with their lives. You know, people who actually are living in the country, rather than doing the fly - by thing at the Bahgdad Hilton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure &#8211; &#8220;news reports&#8221; that are generated entirely from reporter&#8217;s acute observations from their hotel rooms, which of course are located within the Green Triangle. You&#8217;re now trafficking in innuendo and heresay.   </p>
<p>Then you go on to use ONE comment from ONE person to support your &#8220;eyewitness accounts.&#8221; Congrats, Peter &#8211; your new reporter&#8217;s job at the NYT is ready for your immediate occupation. </p>
<p>Have you even bothered to read Omar the Iraq Model&#8217;s blog? There are countless others, where you read both the good and the bad that&#8217;s currently going on in the country, reported by regular citizens trying to get on with their lives. You know, people who actually are living in the country, rather than doing the fly &#8211; by thing at the Bahgdad Hilton.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15518</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15518</guid>
		<description>As you know, there is no organization which surveys the deaths of innocents in Iraq, either before or after our invasion.  There are no hard data on how many people died in Saddam’s prisons, and there are no hard data on how many people died because of American bombs, IED’s, riots, and insurgents.  However, in the absence of statistics, one can make reasonable assumptions based on news reports and eyewitness accounts.  Ayad Allawi recently was quoted as saying that “fifty or sixty” people are dying every day in sectarian violence.  That yields a run rate of 20,000 deaths a year.   As noted above, estimates of civilian deaths range from 30,000 (George Bush) to over 100,000, (Foreign Affairs), which also yields a mortality rate in the tens of thousands per year.   The fact that it can&#039;t be quantified down to the individual does not obviate the fact that an extraordinary number of Iraqi civilians die every year as a direct or indirect result of the invasion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you know, there is no organization which surveys the deaths of innocents in Iraq, either before or after our invasion.  There are no hard data on how many people died in Saddam’s prisons, and there are no hard data on how many people died because of American bombs, IED’s, riots, and insurgents.  However, in the absence of statistics, one can make reasonable assumptions based on news reports and eyewitness accounts.  Ayad Allawi recently was quoted as saying that “fifty or sixty” people are dying every day in sectarian violence.  That yields a run rate of 20,000 deaths a year.   As noted above, estimates of civilian deaths range from 30,000 (George Bush) to over 100,000, (Foreign Affairs), which also yields a mortality rate in the tens of thousands per year.   The fact that it can&#8217;t be quantified down to the individual does not obviate the fact that an extraordinary number of Iraqi civilians die every year as a direct or indirect result of the invasion.</p>
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		<title>By: dmac</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15515</link>
		<dc:creator>dmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15515</guid>
		<description>&quot;Innocent people died under Hussein, and at least as many innocent people are dying today.&quot; 

Another statement long on opinion and conjecture, but short of any demonstrable facts. Please give cites - and cites that are distinctly objective as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Innocent people died under Hussein, and at least as many innocent people are dying today.&#8221; </p>
<p>Another statement long on opinion and conjecture, but short of any demonstrable facts. Please give cites &#8211; and cites that are distinctly objective as well.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/comment-page-1/#comment-15509</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/04/06/did-bush-authorize-efforts-to-discredit-joe-wilson/#comment-15509</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t know how many people died directly from American bombs and ordnance.  However, I&#039;ll posit that whatever the number is, it is less than tens of thousands.

However, the number of people who died as a result of the war -- whether from our military or from the insurgency which resulted from the invasion -- is certainly in the tens of thousands.  Bush used the 30,000 figure last year, while Foreign Affairs suggested the number is north of 100,000.

Innocent people died under Hussein, and at least as many innocent people are dying today.  I don&#039;t know how anyone could point to this as progress.  At least under Hussein, we did not bear any moral responsibility for the deaths of innocent lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t know how many people died directly from American bombs and ordnance.  However, I&#8217;ll posit that whatever the number is, it is less than tens of thousands.</p>
<p>However, the number of people who died as a result of the war &#8212; whether from our military or from the insurgency which resulted from the invasion &#8212; is certainly in the tens of thousands.  Bush used the 30,000 figure last year, while Foreign Affairs suggested the number is north of 100,000.</p>
<p>Innocent people died under Hussein, and at least as many innocent people are dying today.  I don&#8217;t know how anyone could point to this as progress.  At least under Hussein, we did not bear any moral responsibility for the deaths of innocent lives.</p>
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