Comments on: Somebody Pinch Me! http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/ Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:53:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: mikebdot http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23802 mikebdot Wed, 10 May 2006 16:15:15 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23802 Mark, quick thought about the left from someone in the middle. I think it is true there are extreme lefties that are trying to dictate policy in economic affairs, but there are also extreme righties present trying to dictate policy in terms of social affairs. What I find so hard to manage is that I agree with much of the left's social policies (allowing gays to marry, allowing abortions to occur, teaching people actual information about getting pregnant and what you can do to prevent this or plan this better) I disagree with many of their economic free spending policies. I think I value personal freedom more than whether or not I have a few more thousand dollars in my pocket per year and that is why I voted Kerry. It is probably why I'll vote Democrat in most elections (less an actual "independent" is allowed to run again - we really ought to encourage more independent candidates as they push the envelop in terms of the discussion that is had in the debates. Say what you want about Perot, but he certainly changed the discussion and made it slightly interesting), until a Republican actually says "you know what, gay marriage is none of my business. If they want to get married, we should honor that and accept it, Jesus would have, just as he accepted greed and prostitutes, etc". I'm not talking about empty gestures either. I think many on the left are very serious about keeping the government out of my personal business and that is what turns many progressives I know onto the Democratic party, even though both parties are full of political whores. Mark, quick thought about the left from someone in the middle. I think it is true there are extreme lefties that are trying to dictate policy in economic affairs, but there are also extreme righties present trying to dictate policy in terms of social affairs. What I find so hard to manage is that I agree with much of the left’s social policies (allowing gays to marry, allowing abortions to occur, teaching people actual information about getting pregnant and what you can do to prevent this or plan this better) I disagree with many of their economic free spending policies. I think I value personal freedom more than whether or not I have a few more thousand dollars in my pocket per year and that is why I voted Kerry. It is probably why I’ll vote Democrat in most elections (less an actual “independent” is allowed to run again – we really ought to encourage more independent candidates as they push the envelop in terms of the discussion that is had in the debates. Say what you want about Perot, but he certainly changed the discussion and made it slightly interesting), until a Republican actually says “you know what, gay marriage is none of my business. If they want to get married, we should honor that and accept it, Jesus would have, just as he accepted greed and prostitutes, etc”. I’m not talking about empty gestures either. I think many on the left are very serious about keeping the government out of my personal business and that is what turns many progressives I know onto the Democratic party, even though both parties are full of political whores.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23773 Mark Wed, 10 May 2006 03:25:50 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23773 Yeah, Scott, absolutely, the left can ignore the voices of hate and function like a loyal opposition - and I'm happy to report that a large portion of them seem prepared to do just that... Yeah, Scott, absolutely, the left can ignore the voices of hate and function like a loyal opposition – and I’m happy to report that a large portion of them seem prepared to do just that…

]]> By: Scott W. Somerville http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23759 Scott W. Somerville Wed, 10 May 2006 01:24:17 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23759 Assuming hate turns people off, is there anything the left can do to turn off the hate? Or is this train heading for a cliff? Assuming hate turns people off, is there anything the left can do to turn off the hate? Or is this train heading for a cliff?

]]> By: megapotamus http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23731 megapotamus Tue, 09 May 2006 20:27:35 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23731 I will gladly mothball McCain. Though the man is sometimes pitching into my wheelhouse, I'm certain it is accidental. I don't think he really has much in the way of a governing philosophy. As for Mad Howard, well, if the very existence of McCain is to ameliorate the partisan weight of the Kossacks and Dr. D we have to analyze some very different fauna here. McCain is elected statewide in AZ. While he is popular enough in the party at large he is most definitely NOT with the leadership. (Also baffling here, minutes ago McCain was the dashboard saint for the antis; the martyred uncle of the primaries and the first victim of BushCo but maybe I'm behind the curve.) Dr. Dean was elected head of the DNC by a nice wide pastiche of Dem insider bigwigs and that, of course, was with an oh-so self concious nod to the Nutters described above. Dean is explicitly a bone for the base and as such he speaks quite accurately I think, on their behalf. Let's find some similar figure on the Right that has said, to the effect "I hate Democrats and everything they stand for." or "Most Democrats have never worked an honest day in their lives." Do so and I shall denounce such boobery without recourse to "Hey, the other guys do that, too!" Get to work on that, fellas. I'll get comfy. I will gladly mothball McCain. Though the man is sometimes pitching into my wheelhouse, I’m certain it is accidental. I don’t think he really has much in the way of a governing philosophy. As for Mad Howard, well, if the very existence of McCain is to ameliorate the partisan weight of the Kossacks and Dr. D we have to analyze some very different fauna here. McCain is elected statewide in AZ. While he is popular enough in the party at large he is most definitely NOT with the leadership. (Also baffling here, minutes ago McCain was the dashboard saint for the antis; the martyred uncle of the primaries and the first victim of BushCo but maybe I’m behind the curve.) Dr. Dean was elected head of the DNC by a nice wide pastiche of Dem insider bigwigs and that, of course, was with an oh-so self concious nod to the Nutters described above. Dean is explicitly a bone for the base and as such he speaks quite accurately I think, on their behalf. Let’s find some similar figure on the Right that has said, to the effect “I hate Democrats and everything they stand for.” or “Most Democrats have never worked an honest day in their lives.” Do so and I shall denounce such boobery without recourse to “Hey, the other guys do that, too!” Get to work on that, fellas. I’ll get comfy.

]]> By: mikebdot http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23730 mikebdot Tue, 09 May 2006 20:21:04 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23730 Dennis, I agree that the discussion on kos and atrios and the like are weak, but I don't comment on sites that have 900 responses (like Atrios) because there is no point. There is no "discussion" at all. I think the commenting people are bored and have nothing better to do, but there are those of us who poke by to read the posts and then leave to find other shiny objects. I don't even read their comments anymore. When I read "kossacks" or "Nutroots" on this site, I usually read this as the contributors to the site and everyone that visits it, not just the commenters. I would guess the majority don't comment on the site as no good discussion can be had from 900 one-liners as is typical of many of the posts at Atrios or Kos. Aaron, we could go back and forth about pandering with votes all day, but it will not prove anything. Both sides pander. The left thinks the right does it more, the right thinks the left does it more. It's a silly discussion that can't be proved. Meanwhile, those of us in the middle (me) just sit back and marvel at the asinine bickering and wonder why we came up with political parties in the first place (Washington warned us...). Dennis, I agree that the discussion on kos and atrios and the like are weak, but I don’t comment on sites that have 900 responses (like Atrios) because there is no point. There is no “discussion” at all. I think the commenting people are bored and have nothing better to do, but there are those of us who poke by to read the posts and then leave to find other shiny objects. I don’t even read their comments anymore. When I read “kossacks” or “Nutroots” on this site, I usually read this as the contributors to the site and everyone that visits it, not just the commenters. I would guess the majority don’t comment on the site as no good discussion can be had from 900 one-liners as is typical of many of the posts at Atrios or Kos.

Aaron, we could go back and forth about pandering with votes all day, but it will not prove anything. Both sides pander. The left thinks the right does it more, the right thinks the left does it more. It’s a silly discussion that can’t be proved. Meanwhile, those of us in the middle (me) just sit back and marvel at the asinine bickering and wonder why we came up with political parties in the first place (Washington warned us…).

]]> By: dmac http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23727 dmac Tue, 09 May 2006 20:13:04 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23727 ..."but I think kossacks and the “nutroots” as you like to say are generally middle of the road libs." In your dreams, perhaps. Try debating them on the actual merits of their arguments - try taking a "moderate" stance like I have at numerous times in the past, and watch the bile start flying in your direction, immediately. Many of them even contacting me by e - mail to spew more of their spittle, just in case I missed their rants on the site itself. Pure class. They're a bunch of trolls, plain and simple. You can find the same idiocies on the other side, over at Freepers.com. But Freepers has an almost non - existent traffic count, so it's not even a fair analogy. As for Coulter, she's ridiculed daily at all of the main conservative blogs and papers, starting at the WSJ, Weekly Standard, and even LGF. …”but I think kossacks and the “nutroots” as you like to say are generally middle of the road libs.”

In your dreams, perhaps. Try debating them on the actual merits of their arguments – try taking a “moderate” stance like I have at numerous times in the past, and watch the bile start flying in your direction, immediately. Many of them even contacting me by e – mail to spew more of their spittle, just in case I missed their rants on the site itself. Pure class.

They’re a bunch of trolls, plain and simple. You can find the same idiocies on the other side, over at Freepers.com. But Freepers has an almost non – existent traffic count, so it’s not even a fair analogy.

As for Coulter, she’s ridiculed daily at all of the main conservative blogs and papers, starting at the WSJ, Weekly Standard, and even LGF.

]]> By: Aaron http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23725 Aaron Tue, 09 May 2006 19:16:56 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23725 I'd also add that throwing a few rhetorical bones to the far right -- McCain speaking to Falwell, or Bush mentioning the Federal Marriage Amendment once in the 2005 State of the Union -- is all style and little substance. Seriously, what in McCain's voting record indicates that he is on the far right or that even panders to them, aside from the occassional cheap word? Unlike Republicans, the Democrats pander to the far left with their votes. So in which party do the extremists hold the greatest influence? I’d also add that throwing a few rhetorical bones to the far right — McCain speaking to Falwell, or Bush mentioning the Federal Marriage Amendment once in the 2005 State of the Union — is all style and little substance. Seriously, what in McCain’s voting record indicates that he is on the far right or that even panders to them, aside from the occassional cheap word? Unlike Republicans, the Democrats pander to the far left with their votes. So in which party do the extremists hold the greatest influence?

]]> By: Dennis http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23723 Dennis Tue, 09 May 2006 18:56:17 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23723 Mike, it seems to me that if you read the comments in Kos, it's not hard to find a tidal wave of extreme angry left types there, pretty much the equivalent of what you'd see in Mother Jones, but perhaps with more cursing. Those are exactly the kinds of loudmouths who launch waves of attacks on guys like Richard Cohen, who is the furthest thing from a Bush lapdog, for failing to hew to the party line. Sure, it's a big community and you can find all types, but the rabble rousers seem to dominate discussion. Mike, it seems to me that if you read the comments in Kos, it’s not hard to find a tidal wave of extreme angry left types there, pretty much the equivalent of what you’d see in Mother Jones, but perhaps with more cursing. Those are exactly the kinds of loudmouths who launch waves of attacks on guys like Richard Cohen, who is the furthest thing from a Bush lapdog, for failing to hew to the party line. Sure, it’s a big community and you can find all types, but the rabble rousers seem to dominate discussion.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23712 Mark Tue, 09 May 2006 17:06:40 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23712 Thanks for the Hitchens tip, I missed it - I'll read it ASAP... Thanks for the Hitchens tip, I missed it – I’ll read it ASAP…

]]> By: mikebdot http://informedspeculation.com/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/comment-page-1/#comment-23710 mikebdot Tue, 09 May 2006 17:05:26 +0000 http://decision08.net/2006/05/09/somebody-pinch-me/#comment-23710 Mark, Apologies for not recognizing the quotation marks. Point taken. I agree the Nation and Mother Jones (I no longer read them regularly) are extreme, but I think kossacks and the "nutroots" as you like to say are generally middle of the road libs. The ones that are vocal and talk loudly are the idiots that get shi**y with Cohen. The only reason I think there is a difference is because dailykos is such a large community. It contains many very close to the middle. I think Markos himself is fairly extreme, but not as extreme on the left as, say, Michelle Malkin is on the right. On an unrelated topic, and to complete a thought from a previous thread, check out <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2137560/" rel="nofollow">this</a> slate article in which Hitchens says: "Assume that the Iranians are within measurable distance of nuclear status. Appearances sometimes to the contrary, they are not mad—or not clinically insane in the way that Saddam Hussein was and Kim Jong-il is. The recent fuss about the obliteration of Israel is largely bullshit: Ayatollah Khomeini's call for this has been intoned pedantically and routinely ever since he first uttered it, and it only got attention this year because of the new phenomenon of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the scrofulous engineer who acts the part of civilian president for his clerical bosses. These people (who once bought weapons from Israel via Oliver North in order to fight Saddam Hussein) are cynical and corrupt. They know as well as you do what would happen if they tried to nuke Israel or the United States. They want the bomb as insurance against invasion and as a weapon of strategic ambiguity to shore up their position in the region." I'm pretty sure that is fairly close to what I was arguing in that same thread. I got this info from <a href="http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/050706.htm#050906" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Mark,

Apologies for not recognizing the quotation marks. Point taken.

I agree the Nation and Mother Jones (I no longer read them regularly) are extreme, but I think kossacks and the “nutroots” as you like to say are generally middle of the road libs. The ones that are vocal and talk loudly are the idiots that get shi**y with Cohen. The only reason I think there is a difference is because dailykos is such a large community. It contains many very close to the middle. I think Markos himself is fairly extreme, but not as extreme on the left as, say, Michelle Malkin is on the right.

On an unrelated topic, and to complete a thought from a previous thread, check out this slate article in which Hitchens says:

“Assume that the Iranians are within measurable distance of nuclear status. Appearances sometimes to the contrary, they are not mad—or not clinically insane in the way that Saddam Hussein was and Kim Jong-il is. The recent fuss about the obliteration of Israel is largely bullshit: Ayatollah Khomeini’s call for this has been intoned pedantically and routinely ever since he first uttered it, and it only got attention this year because of the new phenomenon of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the scrofulous engineer who acts the part of civilian president for his clerical bosses. These people (who once bought weapons from Israel via Oliver North in order to fight Saddam Hussein) are cynical and corrupt. They know as well as you do what would happen if they tried to nuke Israel or the United States. They want the bomb as insurance against invasion and as a weapon of strategic ambiguity to shore up their position in the region.”

I’m pretty sure that is fairly close to what I was arguing in that same thread. I got this info from here.

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