<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: On Journalism, State Secrets, and Prosecution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/</link>
	<description>Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:53:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-57029</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-57029</guid>
		<description>Well, perhaps so.  However, I don’t find anything wrong with the administration’s surveillance of financial transactions – I think they are doing the right thing here.  My reason for writing these posts is that I believe that the Times has done a courageous thing in printing the story in the face of unparalleled vitriol from Republicans and their allies.  I also believe that there is a massive hypocrisy in crucifying the Times and ignoring the fact that the Journal printed essentially the same article on the same day.  I’m equally upset at the Journal, which pilloried the Times last fall for its reporting on the NSA programs, and now they have done essentially the same thing so they wouldn’t be out-scooped by their rivals (and, unlike the Times, the Journal editorial page has been completely silent about doing so).  So it’s not reflexive Bush-bashing – I fully support what they are doing here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, perhaps so.  However, I don’t find anything wrong with the administration’s surveillance of financial transactions – I think they are doing the right thing here.  My reason for writing these posts is that I believe that the Times has done a courageous thing in printing the story in the face of unparalleled vitriol from Republicans and their allies.  I also believe that there is a massive hypocrisy in crucifying the Times and ignoring the fact that the Journal printed essentially the same article on the same day.  I’m equally upset at the Journal, which pilloried the Times last fall for its reporting on the NSA programs, and now they have done essentially the same thing so they wouldn’t be out-scooped by their rivals (and, unlike the Times, the Journal editorial page has been completely silent about doing so).  So it’s not reflexive Bush-bashing – I fully support what they are doing here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-57002</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-57002</guid>
		<description>If you can&#039;t see how tripping up some people through the financial system in such a way that they &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t know that&#039;s how they got tripped up in the first place&lt;/i&gt; is different from running a big news story saying &quot;Here&#039;s how we got these guys!&quot;, I can only conclude your reflexive, contrarian instincts are playing a bigger role in your thoughts than you might otherwise acknowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can&#8217;t see how tripping up some people through the financial system in such a way that they <i>don&#8217;t know that&#8217;s how they got tripped up in the first place</i> is different from running a big news story saying &#8220;Here&#8217;s how we got these guys!&#8221;, I can only conclude your reflexive, contrarian instincts are playing a bigger role in your thoughts than you might otherwise acknowledge.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56889</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56889</guid>
		<description>Let’s take the assertions of government officials trying to justify the program at face value and assume that people were indeed caught through the monitoring of financial transactions.  These people were caught after the government repeatedly announced that we will monitor the flow of money.  If that didn’t stop them from using the banking system, I don’t see why an article in three US newspapers will also stop them.  The question I would ask regards the statement that “now they all know” – they all knew before, but some (apparently) went ahead anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let’s take the assertions of government officials trying to justify the program at face value and assume that people were indeed caught through the monitoring of financial transactions.  These people were caught after the government repeatedly announced that we will monitor the flow of money.  If that didn’t stop them from using the banking system, I don’t see why an article in three US newspapers will also stop them.  The question I would ask regards the statement that “now they all know” – they all knew before, but some (apparently) went ahead anyway.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56885</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56885</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you think that people who are Internet-savvy, know how to manipulate the media, and have been successful in planning and executing massive attacks are too dumb to figure out that making a financial transfer won’t be monitored? &lt;/blockquote&gt; Peter, just look at what the story itself said: &lt;blockquote&gt;The Swift data has provided clues to money trails and ties between possible terrorists and groups financing them, the officials said. In some instances, they said, the program has pointed them to new suspects, while in others it has buttressed cases already under investigation.

Among the successes was the capture of a Qaeda operative, Riduan Isamuddin, better known as Hambali, believed to be the mastermind of the 2002 bombing of a Bali resort, several officials said. The Swift data identified a previously unknown figure in Southeast Asia who had financial dealings with a person suspected of being a member of Al Qaeda; that link helped locate Hambali in Thailand in 2003, they said. 

In the United States, the program has provided financial data in investigations into possible domestic terrorist cells as well as inquiries of Islamic charities with suspected of having links to extremists, the officials said. 

The data also helped identify a Brooklyn man who was convicted on terrorism-related charges last year, the officials said. The man, Uzair Paracha, who worked at a New York import business, aided a Qaeda operative in Pakistan by agreeing to launder $200,000 through a Karachi bank, prosecutors said. 

In terrorism prosecutions, intelligence officials have been careful to &quot;sanitize,&quot; or hide the origins of evidence collected through the program to keep it secret, officials said. &lt;/blockquote&gt; So whether it&#039;s because they&#039;re dumb or sloppy or something else, the program had been working. Your implication is it was ultimately harmless, because no terrorist could ever be so foolish as to get caught in it. Obviously, some have.

Anyone with a familiarity with the banking system knows their transactions &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; be monitored, just as you say. That doesn&#039;t mean they think all transactions &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; be monitored, and when you try something a few times on a small scale, and nothing seems to happen, it&#039;s easy to think you&#039;ve found a weakness in the system. That&#039;s probably why prosecutors have worked to hide the origin of their evidence, lest those terrorists find out the perceived weakness was not so weak. But now they all know, and we can thank these newspapers for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Do you think that people who are Internet-savvy, know how to manipulate the media, and have been successful in planning and executing massive attacks are too dumb to figure out that making a financial transfer won’t be monitored? </p></blockquote>
<p> Peter, just look at what the story itself said:<br />
<blockquote>The Swift data has provided clues to money trails and ties between possible terrorists and groups financing them, the officials said. In some instances, they said, the program has pointed them to new suspects, while in others it has buttressed cases already under investigation.</p>
<p>Among the successes was the capture of a Qaeda operative, Riduan Isamuddin, better known as Hambali, believed to be the mastermind of the 2002 bombing of a Bali resort, several officials said. The Swift data identified a previously unknown figure in Southeast Asia who had financial dealings with a person suspected of being a member of Al Qaeda; that link helped locate Hambali in Thailand in 2003, they said. </p>
<p>In the United States, the program has provided financial data in investigations into possible domestic terrorist cells as well as inquiries of Islamic charities with suspected of having links to extremists, the officials said. </p>
<p>The data also helped identify a Brooklyn man who was convicted on terrorism-related charges last year, the officials said. The man, Uzair Paracha, who worked at a New York import business, aided a Qaeda operative in Pakistan by agreeing to launder $200,000 through a Karachi bank, prosecutors said. </p>
<p>In terrorism prosecutions, intelligence officials have been careful to &#8220;sanitize,&#8221; or hide the origins of evidence collected through the program to keep it secret, officials said. </p></blockquote>
<p> So whether it&#8217;s because they&#8217;re dumb or sloppy or something else, the program had been working. Your implication is it was ultimately harmless, because no terrorist could ever be so foolish as to get caught in it. Obviously, some have.</p>
<p>Anyone with a familiarity with the banking system knows their transactions <i>could</i> be monitored, just as you say. That doesn&#8217;t mean they think all transactions <i>will</i> be monitored, and when you try something a few times on a small scale, and nothing seems to happen, it&#8217;s easy to think you&#8217;ve found a weakness in the system. That&#8217;s probably why prosecutors have worked to hide the origin of their evidence, lest those terrorists find out the perceived weakness was not so weak. But now they all know, and we can thank these newspapers for that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56878</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56878</guid>
		<description>The Times reported on the putative WMD in Iraq because the government leaked misleading (and classified) information to Judith Miller.  It’s OK when the administration leaks to suit its purposes, but evidently it’s not OK if others leak information the government would prefer to keep secret.

As for victims:  it’s a little difficult to identify victims when the scope and nature of the plans are secret.  As noted above, I don’t think that the existence of victims (if any) is part of the reason why this story is newsworthy and in the public interest.  The press’s zealotry (if that’s what it is) is justified for other reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Times reported on the putative WMD in Iraq because the government leaked misleading (and classified) information to Judith Miller.  It’s OK when the administration leaks to suit its purposes, but evidently it’s not OK if others leak information the government would prefer to keep secret.</p>
<p>As for victims:  it’s a little difficult to identify victims when the scope and nature of the plans are secret.  As noted above, I don’t think that the existence of victims (if any) is part of the reason why this story is newsworthy and in the public interest.  The press’s zealotry (if that’s what it is) is justified for other reasons.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mtl</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56867</link>
		<dc:creator>mtl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56867</guid>
		<description>&quot;Much of what they have done has been outside the checks and balances in the Constitution, whether it is the NSA programs, the abandonment of FISA requirements, the signing ceremonies, etc. Now the administration is involved in another surveillance program which is far larger in scope and ambition than any executive branch has done before.&quot;

I see the presses role as defending the indivudual who is a victim of this &#039;zealousness&#039;.  If the press could give me a name of a victim and tell me how their specific rights were taken away, they would be on firmer footing.  Their work assumes that there will be a victim-

Just as their work, pre-Iraq war, assumed that there were wmd&#039;s in Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Much of what they have done has been outside the checks and balances in the Constitution, whether it is the NSA programs, the abandonment of FISA requirements, the signing ceremonies, etc. Now the administration is involved in another surveillance program which is far larger in scope and ambition than any executive branch has done before.&#8221;</p>
<p>I see the presses role as defending the indivudual who is a victim of this &#8216;zealousness&#8217;.  If the press could give me a name of a victim and tell me how their specific rights were taken away, they would be on firmer footing.  Their work assumes that there will be a victim-</p>
<p>Just as their work, pre-Iraq war, assumed that there were wmd&#8217;s in Iraq.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56856</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56856</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it was written to be a pro-Bush or anti-Bush piece -- certainly it had the same substance as the Journal piece, and I don&#039;t recall ever seeing an anti-Bush piece in the Journal -- but it plays to the Bush theme of being aggressive on terrorism, so in that sense it could be perceived as supporting the Bush agenda --</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it was written to be a pro-Bush or anti-Bush piece &#8212; certainly it had the same substance as the Journal piece, and I don&#8217;t recall ever seeing an anti-Bush piece in the Journal &#8212; but it plays to the Bush theme of being aggressive on terrorism, so in that sense it could be perceived as supporting the Bush agenda &#8211;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56854</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56854</guid>
		<description>peter, it&#039;s self-evidently not a pro-Bush piece, as I will perhaps show in a post later...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>peter, it&#8217;s self-evidently not a pro-Bush piece, as I will perhaps show in a post later&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56853</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56853</guid>
		<description>Another reason the story is newsworthy is this:  Since 9/11, the Bush administration has used 9/11 as the justification to expand executive powers far beyond anything in my lifetime, and I’m old enough to remember ten cent Cokes in glass bottles.  Much of what they have done has been outside the checks and balances in the Constitution, whether it is the NSA programs, the abandonment of FISA requirements, the signing ceremonies, etc.  Now the administration is involved in another surveillance program which is far larger in scope and ambition than any executive branch has done before.  Whether it is right or wrong, it is certainly newsworthy to bring to light how the Bush administration is expanding executive powers.  How could you not print this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason the story is newsworthy is this:  Since 9/11, the Bush administration has used 9/11 as the justification to expand executive powers far beyond anything in my lifetime, and I’m old enough to remember ten cent Cokes in glass bottles.  Much of what they have done has been outside the checks and balances in the Constitution, whether it is the NSA programs, the abandonment of FISA requirements, the signing ceremonies, etc.  Now the administration is involved in another surveillance program which is far larger in scope and ambition than any executive branch has done before.  Whether it is right or wrong, it is certainly newsworthy to bring to light how the Bush administration is expanding executive powers.  How could you not print this?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/comment-page-1/#comment-56846</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2006/06/27/on-journalism-state-secrets-and-prosecution/#comment-56846</guid>
		<description>Well, Dennis, after hearing the administration announce persistently over the past few years that they are following the money, it’s hard to imagine how they would do this without tracking names and account numbers.  The detail which the Times added to what the administration has already said publicly is miniscule.  After everything the administration has said on the subject, I simply don’t see anything in that story which could conceivably tell any terrorist anything he did not already know. 
  
Moreover, “the notion that terrorists could be allowed to use the financial system, without understanding the extent to which they are monitored” is ludicrous.  Anyone with the slightest knowledge of how banks work would know that any deposit, withdrawal, or transfer could be monitored.  Al Qaeda isn’t the Keystone Kops:  they are patient, savvy, and by no means stupid.  Do you think that people who are Internet-savvy, know how to manipulate the media, and have been successful in planning and executing massive attacks are too dumb to figure out that making a financial transfer won’t be monitored?  To borrow a quote, the idea that the Times piece somehow alerted Al Qaeda to something they didn’t know is an “absurdity too gross to be insisted upon.”  The administration told them everything they needed to know long ago.

The suggestion that the Times did this to “hurt Bush” is equally silly.  If you wanted to print a story attacking Bush, you wouldn’t write a piece about how the administration is fighting terrorism by tracking financial assets.  Would you suggest that the Journal also is trying to hurt Bush by putting the story on its front page?

The story is newsworthy in that it confirms that the administration is doing what it says (if anything, it’s a pro-Bush piece), as well as because there are privacy and legal issues which ought to be discussed in a public forum.  Moreover, the American people have the right to know what their government is doing, and the press has the obligation to report it.  The limit of press responsibility starts at the point where the publication of a story poses an imminent threat or vulnerability which outweighs the public’s right to know, such as the location of troops or a diagram for building a nuclear weapon.  By any definition, this story fails to meet that criterion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Dennis, after hearing the administration announce persistently over the past few years that they are following the money, it’s hard to imagine how they would do this without tracking names and account numbers.  The detail which the Times added to what the administration has already said publicly is miniscule.  After everything the administration has said on the subject, I simply don’t see anything in that story which could conceivably tell any terrorist anything he did not already know. </p>
<p>Moreover, “the notion that terrorists could be allowed to use the financial system, without understanding the extent to which they are monitored” is ludicrous.  Anyone with the slightest knowledge of how banks work would know that any deposit, withdrawal, or transfer could be monitored.  Al Qaeda isn’t the Keystone Kops:  they are patient, savvy, and by no means stupid.  Do you think that people who are Internet-savvy, know how to manipulate the media, and have been successful in planning and executing massive attacks are too dumb to figure out that making a financial transfer won’t be monitored?  To borrow a quote, the idea that the Times piece somehow alerted Al Qaeda to something they didn’t know is an “absurdity too gross to be insisted upon.”  The administration told them everything they needed to know long ago.</p>
<p>The suggestion that the Times did this to “hurt Bush” is equally silly.  If you wanted to print a story attacking Bush, you wouldn’t write a piece about how the administration is fighting terrorism by tracking financial assets.  Would you suggest that the Journal also is trying to hurt Bush by putting the story on its front page?</p>
<p>The story is newsworthy in that it confirms that the administration is doing what it says (if anything, it’s a pro-Bush piece), as well as because there are privacy and legal issues which ought to be discussed in a public forum.  Moreover, the American people have the right to know what their government is doing, and the press has the obligation to report it.  The limit of press responsibility starts at the point where the publication of a story poses an imminent threat or vulnerability which outweighs the public’s right to know, such as the location of troops or a diagram for building a nuclear weapon.  By any definition, this story fails to meet that criterion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

