Comments on: Rudy: The Pro And The (So)Con http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/ Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:53:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: The Right Nation http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-230420 The Right Nation Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:02:57 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-230420 <strong>Rudy 2008 [weekend open trackback]</strong> MSM Round-Up: City Journal, Fox News (Special Report with Brit Hume), Fox News (Hannity & Colmes), New York Post, Forbes, Real Clear Politics (2), Denver Post, Chicago Tribune, FrontPage Magazine, Daily Mirror, National Review, France24, The Hill, Sk... Rudy 2008 [weekend open trackback]

MSM Round-Up: City Journal, Fox News (Special Report with Brit Hume), Fox News (Hannity & Colmes), New York Post, Forbes, Real Clear Politics (2), Denver Post, Chicago Tribune, FrontPage Magazine, Daily Mirror, National Review, France24, The Hill, Sk…

]]> By: David M. Smith http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228681 David M. Smith Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:48:01 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228681 Actually, Bob from Ohio, the fact that President Reagan signed a bill to legalize abortions in California while he was governor proves that you are being disingenuous because you also know for a fact he later regretted signing the bill and he always spoke out against abortion as a candidate for president and as president. What President Reagan did unabashedly as president is not the same as what he did as governor. Social conservatives and others do want a president like President Reagan. Actually, Bob from Ohio, the fact that President Reagan signed a bill to legalize abortions in California while he was governor proves that you are being disingenuous because you also know for a fact he later regretted signing the bill and he always spoke out against abortion as a candidate for president and as president.

What President Reagan did unabashedly as president is not the same as what he did as governor. Social conservatives and others do want a president like President Reagan.

]]> By: Bob from Ohio http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228651 Bob from Ohio Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:29:59 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228651 Mr. Smith: My original claim was: “Conservatives want a President like a certain former governor of California who was unabashedly opposed to abortion.” Governor Reagan signed a bill that legalized abortion in California. Let us not re-write history. You said that Reagan was "unabashedly" opposed and implied that he always had been in comparison with the current governor. The fact that as governor Reagan did not oppose abortion is a historic fact that disproves your point. He did in fact convert to a pro-life view. Which was my whole point. Peter: Fair enough, I doubt his genuiness but that is my personal feeling, no doubt based on my dislike for him. The facts certainly support your conclusion. Mr. Smith:

My original claim was:

“Conservatives want a President like a certain former governor of California who was unabashedly opposed to abortion.”

Governor Reagan signed a bill that legalized abortion in California. Let us not re-write history.

You said that Reagan was “unabashedly” opposed and implied that he always had been in comparison with the current governor. The fact that as governor Reagan did not oppose abortion is a historic fact that disproves your point. He did in fact convert to a pro-life view. Which was my whole point.

Peter: Fair enough, I doubt his genuiness but that is my personal feeling, no doubt based on my dislike for him. The facts certainly support your conclusion.

]]> By: peter http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228258 peter Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:48:53 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228258 Bob: I think Clinton genuinely was a “third way” Democrat – who would have expected a Democratic President to champion welfare reform, free trade, and balanced budgets? Bob: I think Clinton genuinely was a “third way” Democrat – who would have expected a Democratic President to champion welfare reform, free trade, and balanced budgets?

]]> By: David M. Smith http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228246 David M. Smith Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:30:59 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228246 Hi Again Bob from Ohio, Floyd Brown contradicts your original claim. I agree with Floyd Brown. President Reagan was not perfect on abortion, but as President he was a strong outspoken opponent of abortion. Why are you trying to make it sound like he was not? Hi Again Bob from Ohio,

Floyd Brown contradicts your original claim. I agree with Floyd Brown.

President Reagan was not perfect on abortion, but as President he was a strong outspoken opponent of abortion.

Why are you trying to make it sound like he was not?

]]> By: Bob from Ohio http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228231 Bob from Ohio Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:08:00 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228231 Peter: "conversion" may have been too strong but there was a lot of talk at the time that welfare reform was an issue Clinton grabbed to show he was a "third way" democrat. See Dick Morris for example. I don't see anything wrong with politicians using political reasons for their actions so I am not being critical of either Reagan or Clinton really. I am critical about being called a liar: "You used a fact to misrepresent the truth. Either you don’t know the truth or you are intentionally misrepresenting the truth. " According to a January, 2007 column at Townhall.com ( a conservative site) by Floyd Brown: "President Reagan did not always take such a strong position against abortion as his rhetoric implies. Indeed, he signed into law a permissive abortion bill early in his California governorship which has resulted in more than one million abortions. He publicly later regretted this decision, and he said it was the biggest mistake he made in government." Bill Clark said that Reagan did not anticipate the increase in abortions due to his signing the law so changed his views. Fair enough. So, I think "conversion" is just about right. So, Mr. Smith, educate me how I am getting it wrong when Reagan stalwarts agree with me? Peter: “conversion” may have been too strong but there was a lot of talk at the time that welfare reform was an issue Clinton grabbed to show he was a “third way” democrat. See Dick Morris for example.

I don’t see anything wrong with politicians using political reasons for their actions so I am not being critical of either Reagan or Clinton really.

I am critical about being called a liar:

“You used a fact to misrepresent the truth. Either you don’t know the truth or you are intentionally misrepresenting the truth. ”

According to a January, 2007 column at Townhall.com ( a conservative site) by Floyd Brown:

“President Reagan did not always take such a strong position against abortion as his rhetoric implies. Indeed, he signed into law a permissive abortion bill early in his California governorship which has resulted in more than one million abortions. He publicly later regretted this decision, and he said it was the biggest mistake he made in government.”

Bill Clark said that Reagan did not anticipate the increase in abortions due to his signing the law so changed his views. Fair enough. So, I think “conversion” is just about right.

So, Mr. Smith, educate me how I am getting it wrong when Reagan stalwarts agree with me?

]]> By: David M. Smith http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228113 David M. Smith Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:40:45 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228113 Hi again Bob from Ohio, I do not consider President Reagan a saint or a great president. He was a good president who stood up to Communism and spoke out strongly against abortion as a candidate and as president. Most good people mature as they age. President Reagan may have been more ambivalent about abortion before deciding to run for president, I don’t know. However, I do know you have miss-represented his position on abortion as governor. You used a fact to misrepresent the truth. Either you don’t know the truth or you are intentionally misrepresenting the truth. BTW, America is much more pro-life now than when President Reagan served. You can claim he didn’t help the cause as president, but something changed in the hearts and minds of Americans after his presidency. He did what he could. Hi again Bob from Ohio,

I do not consider President Reagan a saint or a great president. He was a good president who stood up to Communism and spoke out strongly against abortion as a candidate and as president.

Most good people mature as they age. President Reagan may have been more ambivalent about abortion before deciding to run for president, I don’t know. However, I do know you have miss-represented his position on abortion as governor.

You used a fact to misrepresent the truth. Either you don’t know the truth or you are intentionally misrepresenting the truth.

BTW, America is much more pro-life now than when President Reagan served. You can claim he didn’t help the cause as president, but something changed in the hearts and minds of Americans after his presidency. He did what he could.

]]> By: David M. Smith http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-228105 David M. Smith Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:29:25 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-228105 Hi Mark, For the most part, I do not agree with social conservatives. I am a small “L” libertarian with two big exceptions. I think abortion is evil and I think American military involvement oversees is justified and necessary in defeating regimes that do not value economic freedom or the sanctity of life. However, there is still a voting block of social conservatives that must be appeased. Social conservatives are not the bad guys; they just see the world a little different than libertarians. Like the current President Bush, Mayor Giuliani is mostly a moderate who believes in government solutions to social problems. He is to the political right when it comes to taking the fight to our enemies. Therefore, Mayor Giuliani stands the best chance of being elected if the war in Iraq does not turn out to be a disaster. I agree that Mayor Giuliani is preferable to Senator McCain to most Republicans including social conservatives. Again, it has more to do with likeability than issues. Senator McCain is not very likeable. Governor Huckabee may end up the VP candidate for Mayor Giuliani, Governor Romney, Senator McCain or whoever else wins the nomination. Governor Huckabee is from the south and he has governed as a moderate in a state that has more Democrats than Republicans. He is also likeable, but a little boring. Hi Mark,

For the most part, I do not agree with social conservatives. I am a small “L” libertarian with two big exceptions. I think abortion is evil and I think American military involvement oversees is justified and necessary in defeating regimes that do not value economic freedom or the sanctity of life.

However, there is still a voting block of social conservatives that must be appeased. Social conservatives are not the bad guys; they just see the world a little different than libertarians.

Like the current President Bush, Mayor Giuliani is mostly a moderate who believes in government solutions to social problems. He is to the political right when it comes to taking the fight to our enemies. Therefore, Mayor Giuliani stands the best chance of being elected if the war in Iraq does not turn out to be a disaster.

I agree that Mayor Giuliani is preferable to Senator McCain to most Republicans including social conservatives. Again, it has more to do with likeability than issues. Senator McCain is not very likeable.

Governor Huckabee may end up the VP candidate for Mayor Giuliani, Governor Romney, Senator McCain or whoever else wins the nomination. Governor Huckabee is from the south and he has governed as a moderate in a state that has more Democrats than Republicans. He is also likeable, but a little boring.

]]> By: peter http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-227965 peter Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:29:34 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-227965 Clinton's "conversion" to welfare reform was "driven by politics?" Any evidence to support that? Clinton advocated welfare reform in his campaign and his SOTU address. His leadership in getting the 1996 welfare reform bill passed was opposed by many Democrats and was probably the most controversial thing he did in his first term. Seems to me he did the right thing for the right reasons. Clinton’s “conversion” to welfare reform was “driven by politics?” Any evidence to support that?

Clinton advocated welfare reform in his campaign and his SOTU address. His leadership in getting the 1996 welfare reform bill passed was opposed by many Democrats and was probably the most controversial thing he did in his first term. Seems to me he did the right thing for the right reasons.

]]> By: Bob from Ohio http://informedspeculation.com/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/comment-page-1/#comment-227470 Bob from Ohio Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:41:14 +0000 http://decision08.net/2007/02/06/rudy-the-pro-and-the-socon/#comment-227470 "disingenuous"? Pot meet kettle. Ronald Reagan was a born again pro-lifer who did nothing as president to support pro-life causes. Yes, I do believe that he was personally mildly pro-choice as was the first President Bush. Like Clinton's conversion on welfare reform, Reagan's conversion on abortion was driven by politics. There is no evidence that he personally cared much about the issue. He did what he had to do politically. President Reagan was a great president whom I voted for twice. There is no need to whitewash him by claiming that he was "unabashedly" pro-life. It is just not true. “disingenuous”? Pot meet kettle.

Ronald Reagan was a born again pro-lifer who did nothing as president to support pro-life causes. Yes, I do believe that he was personally mildly pro-choice as was the first President Bush. Like Clinton’s conversion on welfare reform, Reagan’s conversion on abortion was driven by politics. There is no evidence that he personally cared much about the issue. He did what he had to do politically.

President Reagan was a great president whom I voted for twice. There is no need to whitewash him by claiming that he was “unabashedly” pro-life. It is just not true.

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