A Thought To Take Into Super Tuesday
I found a very appropriate quote today reading a book published several years ago. The quote is appropriate in many contexts: it describes the routine venom that spews from the Angry Left, it describes the incredible flow of unbridled excess that characterizes 90% of the blogosphere (right and left), but it also describes the venom spewing right now from the Angry Right towards John McCain.
The quote is from Hendrik Hertzberg’s Politics: Observations and Arguments, 1966-2004
Movement people who ought to know better have indulged in verbal overkill to the point where language – the basic tool for organizing reality into something that can be understood and acted upon – is no longer descriptive. Terms like ‘fascism’, ‘racism’, ‘genocide’, ‘police state’, and ‘oppression’ have been stripped of meaning. (When and if real fascism comes to this country, it seems we will have no words left to describe it.) The United States is a mess, but it is not, at this moment, a genocidal fascist police state…When language is corrupted to the point where it becomes impossible to describe the difference between, say, Nazi Germany and Imperial America, no one should be surprised that people begin to make ‘incorrect decisions’…
Just to give you a little more context: Hertzberg wrote those words 40 years ago, describing the Weathermen. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
Look, you can dislike John McCain until you’re blue in the face, and hate every one of his policies, but know this: he’s not a bad man, he’s not evil, and he’s not a traitor to his party. He is a proud American patriot. Whatever happens tomorrow, let’s pay attention to the quote’s message and watch the rhetoric, what say you all?…
I’ve grown quite tired of the blogosphere’s use of the word “venom”. People have differing opinions. Some of them are heated. Some of them use hyperbole to excess. But the terms haven’t been stripped of anything. Just because someone can’t seperate BS from actuality, that doesn’t say anything about the terms, but more about the person reading them.
P.S. Jonah Goldberg’s “book” “Liberal Fascism” is 40% off right now! Did you purchase that book, Marc?
I think it’s worth pointing out that some of us actally think others are fascists or racists (in may case, Giuliani for the former and a huge portion of the Republican base for the latter). The disagreement is not because we don’t know what those words mean; it’s because we actually disagree about whether they apply to the folks in question. Saying they “obviously” don’t apply is no more useful than saying fascists and Nazis are the same thing.
Do you think that the Weathermen didn’t really believe the Johnson administration wasn’t racist and/or fascist?
If you see extremism in a mainstream politician (like Giuliani or LBJ), the place you’re most likely to see actual extremism is in a mirror.
Nice red herring there Aaron. Hitler was certainly “mainstream”.
Godwin’s Law: you lose.
In any case, it’s ironic that two of the people who frequent this blog that first came to mind as examples of venom-spewers were the first to chime in and agree with how bad it is.
mikebdot and Ryan: “I agree. It’s bad to call people Nazis; it makes people think that Bush isn’t one.”
Waiting for Fargus to show up to complete the club.
Furthermore, if anyone is guilty of a red herring fallacy here, it’s Ryan: Attempting to change the subject from the problems of excessive vitriol in internet forums to whether Rudy Giuliani is a racist.
Aaron, you’re confusing venom-spewing with disagreement.
Were I a conservative, I’d easily be able to spot Andy, with his insistence on making up unfunny, insulting nicknames for every candidate he doesn’t like, as a venom-spewer.
Aaron: Because that means something. Oh wait, it doesn’t. Nazi Germany was mentioned in the original post (in the quote). And besides, I’m right.
Mike’s law: When someone avoids the discussion at hand and accuses someone else of what they themselves are accused, they are full of beans.
There, I called it a law, so it must be so.
Furthermore, you’re confusing irony and coincidence. And when was the last time I compared Bush to the Nazis? Never, methinks. Furthermore, I implied using said terms in most instances is hyperbole (or for shock value, or in Johan’s case, to use the smiley face with a Hitler-stash to sell books to neo-nazis, now THAT is irony).
Mark, I like the quote. In the past 24 hours Ive been called rascist, moronic and pro censorship after saying I was a republican, midway through the conversation. I dont think that any of them new what they were actually saying or had a smidgen of insight to back up such hateful allegations. Anyway, only one of the insults could be true.
Aaron, “If you see extremism in a mainstream politician (like Giuliani or LBJ), the place you’re most likely to see actual extremism is in a mirror.” Thats equally apt. “Extremists” on both sides of the isle need to calm down because its getting rediculous and giving moderates a better name than they deserve.
Nice try, Aaron. But a) I didn’t call Giuliani a racist (reading comprehension is a good virtue to work on), and b) I didn’t change the subject. I’m pointing out that I think there’s a difference between “excessive vitriol” and just plain disagreement. I don’t call Giuliani a fascist because I like to use that word on everyone I disagree with; I call Giuliani a fascist because I think his brand of militaristic, nationalistic, lock-step, you’re-with-me-or-against-me-ism is really truly fascist. Shrugging that off by saying “oh, you’re just a crazy lefty” (and, hilariously, I may be crazy but definitely not a lefty) is no more responsible than wantonly spewing craziness about people you don’t like.
On another hand, there are far worse problems in the world than “excessive vitriol” and many of them can be found in internet forums.
You rang? [/lurch]
Fargus, you’re confusing venom-spewing with terms of endearment and/or nom de caricature. A satirical exaggeration of political truths. IOW, like political cartoons in your editorial pages. Granted, funniness would be in the eye of the beholder, but typically, venom spewers are already blinded by their own venom, to wit Ted Rall or certain Hamas cartoons and the venom-spewing cohorts.
Unfunny, insulting nicknames would be like calling Obama, The Dope. I ain’t going there just because the Clinton Machine says so. Why, that’d be like calling you “____” cause you “might” be ____, without apt correlation. But I’m all over Hillary for giving me the goosebumps, Kerry for scaring me, Bill for being slick and/or a Bubba, and John for being vain.
Speaking of Obama, I might have to think of something with a Joshua/Moses link, that ought to drive the secularists nuts.
Interesting that you care enough about my foils to yelp on their behalf when my aim is true.
Ryan said @ # 11
We have a consensus.
Writing composition would be a good virtue to work on, then you won’t have to accuse readers of poor reading comprehension, when your statement was in fact equivocal. Just saying.
Mark, Be that as it may, I’m not in the least bit inclined to vote for McVain come November. What rhetoric I have for him will be like a soothing balm when the Clinton and/or Daly machine gets thru with him.
Actually, Andy, Ryan called Giuliani a fascist, not a racist…just saying. Of course, I would imagine the Venn diagram of the definition of “racist” to include terms like “fascist” in them somewhere, but it would be an intersecting line somewhere I would imagine, not completely enclosed. So, it’s really a numbers game whether or not Ryan actually thinks he’s a racist, but he UNequivocally did not call him a racist.
Mike, thanks for the support, but it’s best to ignore Andy. He’s not that bright.
Bobbsey-n-Dobbsey
I’m aware of exactly what Guiliani was called. My point is that this was all self-inflicted due to a lack of composition rather than a lack of comprehension, compounded by the obligatory insult to one’s reading capabilities.
Let’s re-examine Exhibit A, as posted in #2:
Obviously there are typos here, so let’s correct them (in bold) and see if it comports with what Ryan was screaming about — which reminds me of a rather infamous orator who was both
Hmmm… So IOW, some of you actually think a huge portion of the GOP base to be more racist than fascist, but with Rudy, the opposite is true. Left unsaid is where others fit in; the portion of the Donk base that is fascist and/or racist & to what degree. I’m guessing we’re to lump them with Rudy.
Let’s try again.
Better? Good! Still sounds like the ravings of the conspiratorial lunatic fringe. Now run along a be a good boy.
Aaron, good line about the mirror. However, in relation to venom-spewing, when cobras interact with mirrors, mirrors tend to get drenched.
Andy, in neither of your corrections does my sentence indicate that I think Giuliani is a racist. You just don’t know how to read, that’s all. And i fail to see how calling Giuliani a fascist or the Republican base racist (both of which I think are demonstrably true statements) is conspiratorial. I’m not conspiring, they’re not conspiring – who’s conspiring here? Look, I understand that you’re a couple standard deviations below the mean, but concentrate really hard and I think you can get these things. I believe in you.
Ryan, you’re right. I don’t know how to read the ambiguous fevered rantings of mental midgets.
To that I’d add “spewing a theory that Rudy conspired to enact an unconstitutional fascist regime”, which sums up your entire diatribe against Rudy. Just be glad he didn’t succeed or you’d be counting the stitchings of your padded cell.
I, for one, hope you continue to stew in your venom so as to continue providing comedic relief to the rest of us. Can you do it? Yes, you can…
First and foremost I would like to refer many of you to a song entitled “Admit It” by a contemporary band called Say Anything. Please listen to the lyrics.
On a lighter note, at what point should we stop bickering in regards to vocabulary and start refocusing on the individuals we must choose from to lead this country. You are all intelegent people, this is painfully obvious to a left-brained college student. Please I would like to see some input in regards to the issues and which candidates are offering what solutions.
That being said attack me if you must. I am quite sure that I incorrectly typed something so there is some easy ammunition.