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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s A &#8220;Bitter&#8221; Sweet Symphony, That&#8217;s Life</title>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486947</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 03:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486947</guid>
		<description>Nope. He&#039;s possibly an undercover athiest, because it seems that he joined a church, which appears to be only nominally Christian at best, more for purposes of political expediency than anything else.

But he&#039;s not a Muslim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope. He&#8217;s possibly an undercover athiest, because it seems that he joined a church, which appears to be only nominally Christian at best, more for purposes of political expediency than anything else.</p>
<p>But he&#8217;s not a Muslim.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486536</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486536</guid>
		<description>Obama is uncomfortable with the wearing the &quot;pin&quot; because he is muslim undercover. He is a decoy for muslims that are bent on destroying America!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama is uncomfortable with the wearing the &#8220;pin&#8221; because he is muslim undercover. He is a decoy for muslims that are bent on destroying America!</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486114</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486114</guid>
		<description>Peter, I agree with what you have said about patriotism and that wearing a lapel pin doesn&#039;t necessarily indicate it -- nor does not wearing one indicate a lack of patriotism, but that is not what Obama said.

He did not say that wearing a lapel pin &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t indicate&lt;/i&gt; patriotism, which could be taken one way or another; he said it was a &lt;i&gt;substitute&lt;/i&gt; for real patriotism.

To substitute A with B, you must remove A and put B in its place.

If an American flag lapel pin is a substitute for real patriotism, then real patriotism must be removed and the American flag lapel pin put in its place.

Thus, in Obama&#039;s opinion, quite different from yours and mine, the only people who can legitimately claim to be patriotic are those who do not wear American flag pins. (As you may have noticed in an earlier thread, Obama himself has even fallen short of his standard on this).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, I agree with what you have said about patriotism and that wearing a lapel pin doesn&#8217;t necessarily indicate it &#8212; nor does not wearing one indicate a lack of patriotism, but that is not what Obama said.</p>
<p>He did not say that wearing a lapel pin <i>didn&#8217;t indicate</i> patriotism, which could be taken one way or another; he said it was a <i>substitute</i> for real patriotism.</p>
<p>To substitute A with B, you must remove A and put B in its place.</p>
<p>If an American flag lapel pin is a substitute for real patriotism, then real patriotism must be removed and the American flag lapel pin put in its place.</p>
<p>Thus, in Obama&#8217;s opinion, quite different from yours and mine, the only people who can legitimately claim to be patriotic are those who do not wear American flag pins. (As you may have noticed in an earlier thread, Obama himself has even fallen short of his standard on this).</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486043</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486043</guid>
		<description>Aaron:  the logical conclusion of the statement is that wearing a lapel pin is not in itself evidence of genuine patriotism.  (In logical terms:  wearing a lapel pin is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to establish proof of patriotism).

I think Obama has a valid point here.  People who enlist in the armed forces or serve in government when they can make more money elsewhere are genuinely patriotic.  Anybody can wear a lapel pin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron:  the logical conclusion of the statement is that wearing a lapel pin is not in itself evidence of genuine patriotism.  (In logical terms:  wearing a lapel pin is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to establish proof of patriotism).</p>
<p>I think Obama has a valid point here.  People who enlist in the armed forces or serve in government when they can make more money elsewhere are genuinely patriotic.  Anybody can wear a lapel pin.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486022</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486022</guid>
		<description>&quot;Here in the UK we think Obama’s great!&quot;

Good thing y&#039;all can&#039;t vote. But, how about a trade? Almost everyone over here admires Tony Blair a lot more than any of our own politicians and Obama&#039;s a lot more popular in the U.K. than any British politician (from what I can tell).

US President Tony Blair and British Prime Minister Barack Obama?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Here in the UK we think Obama’s great!&#8221;</p>
<p>Good thing y&#8217;all can&#8217;t vote. But, how about a trade? Almost everyone over here admires Tony Blair a lot more than any of our own politicians and Obama&#8217;s a lot more popular in the U.K. than any British politician (from what I can tell).</p>
<p>US President Tony Blair and British Prime Minister Barack Obama?</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486020</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486020</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don’t remember a single instance of a prominent Democrat or leftist questioning their patriotism or love of country.&quot;

Allow me to refresh your memory.

Barack Obama: &quot;that [American flag lapel pin] became a substitute for I think true patriotism.&quot;

Is the logical conclusion of that statement not that those who wear such lapel pins possess only &lt;i&gt;false&lt;/i&gt; patriotism, which of course, means no patriotism at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t remember a single instance of a prominent Democrat or leftist questioning their patriotism or love of country.&#8221;</p>
<p>Allow me to refresh your memory.</p>
<p>Barack Obama: &#8220;that [American flag lapel pin] became a substitute for I think true patriotism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is the logical conclusion of that statement not that those who wear such lapel pins possess only <i>false</i> patriotism, which of course, means no patriotism at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-486006</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-486006</guid>
		<description>Here in the UK we think Obama&#039;s great!

Despite the odd minor setback ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in the UK we think Obama&#8217;s great!</p>
<p>Despite the odd minor setback <img src='http://informedspeculation.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: too many steves</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-485971</link>
		<dc:creator>too many steves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-485971</guid>
		<description>Ok, fair enough.  I just think that someone willing to go &quot;beyond the pale&quot; does more to undermine their own position than actually harm their target, because the unfairness is obvious.  Calling someone a traitor, when it is clear they are not, is more damaging to the accuser (to me at least).

Having said that, I don&#039;t think Obama&#039;s comment has been distorted.  I&#039;ve read it carefully, and in context, and it does impress me as being condescending and disdainful.  He implies that people cling to certain points of view, with which he objects, not on the merits, but because they are bitter about their economic circumstances.  Whether he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth (like you!) or not, I hear an elitist edge in that perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, fair enough.  I just think that someone willing to go &#8220;beyond the pale&#8221; does more to undermine their own position than actually harm their target, because the unfairness is obvious.  Calling someone a traitor, when it is clear they are not, is more damaging to the accuser (to me at least).</p>
<p>Having said that, I don&#8217;t think Obama&#8217;s comment has been distorted.  I&#8217;ve read it carefully, and in context, and it does impress me as being condescending and disdainful.  He implies that people cling to certain points of view, with which he objects, not on the merits, but because they are bitter about their economic circumstances.  Whether he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth (like you!) or not, I hear an elitist edge in that perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-485949</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-485949</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not here to protect the tender sensibilities of leftists or Democrats -- only to point out that some things are beyond the pale, such as insisting that those who disagree with you have a secret agendum of giving aid and comfort to terrorists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not here to protect the tender sensibilities of leftists or Democrats &#8212; only to point out that some things are beyond the pale, such as insisting that those who disagree with you have a secret agendum of giving aid and comfort to terrorists.</p>
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		<title>By: too many steves</title>
		<link>http://informedspeculation.com/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/comment-page-1/#comment-485941</link>
		<dc:creator>too many steves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decision08.net/2008/04/16/its-a-bitter-sweet-symphony-thats-life/#comment-485941</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure a game of &quot;I&#039;m rubber and you&#039;re glue...&quot; is all that productive at this point.  Sure, folks on both sides of the aisle could be more polite, but, then, politics isn&#039;t a polite endeavor.  Maybe &quot;a prominent Democrat or leftist&quot; hasn&#039;t questioned anyone&#039;s patriotism or love of country, but is that the worst that someone can do?  Are they so deeply hurt, is their psyche damaged, by such specious rhetoric?  Sheesh, I didn&#039;t realize everyone was so sensitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure a game of &#8220;I&#8217;m rubber and you&#8217;re glue&#8230;&#8221; is all that productive at this point.  Sure, folks on both sides of the aisle could be more polite, but, then, politics isn&#8217;t a polite endeavor.  Maybe &#8220;a prominent Democrat or leftist&#8221; hasn&#8217;t questioned anyone&#8217;s patriotism or love of country, but is that the worst that someone can do?  Are they so deeply hurt, is their psyche damaged, by such specious rhetoric?  Sheesh, I didn&#8217;t realize everyone was so sensitive.</p>
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