Comments on: Let’s Not Lose Sight Of The Forest For The Trees http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/ Refunds Cheerfully Given To All Who Disagree Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:53:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-524640 Mark Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:12:05 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-524640 I have stated on at least 3 or 4 occasions in recent posts that we have to respect Iraq's sovereignty. There's no way you, as a regular reader, could have missed it... I have stated on at least 3 or 4 occasions in recent posts that we have to respect Iraq’s sovereignty. There’s no way you, as a regular reader, could have missed it…

]]> By: Ryan http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-524285 Ryan Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:36:17 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-524285 Mark, we are negotiating with the government of Iraq. And I realize we have not been asked to leave just yet, but if the duly-elected leader of Iraq tells us to leave by 2010, it is no longer our right - or yours, from your keyboard - to tell the people of Iraq whether they're "ready" or not. This has nothing to do with my "refusal" to recognize the military situation in Iraq. My point is that Iraq is not some protectorate or colony of the United States. When they tell us to leave, that is precisely what we are obligated to do. And the security situation is entirely irrelevant at that point. Mark, we are negotiating with the government of Iraq. And I realize we have not been asked to leave just yet, but if the duly-elected leader of Iraq tells us to leave by 2010, it is no longer our right – or yours, from your keyboard – to tell the people of Iraq whether they’re “ready” or not.

This has nothing to do with my “refusal” to recognize the military situation in Iraq. My point is that Iraq is not some protectorate or colony of the United States. When they tell us to leave, that is precisely what we are obligated to do. And the security situation is entirely irrelevant at that point.

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523888 Mark Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:42:45 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523888 Finally, who the hell do you think we're negotiating with if not the elected government of Iraq?... Finally, who the hell do you think we’re negotiating with if not the elected government of Iraq?…

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523886 Mark Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:41:43 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523886 And 'ready' is not a cultural benchmark - it is a military one. Are they ready to take on the role of defending their country from enemies within and without? No one is trying to turn Baghdad into Hollywood and Vine...you're trashing a strawman... And ‘ready’ is not a cultural benchmark – it is a military one. Are they ready to take on the role of defending their country from enemies within and without?

No one is trying to turn Baghdad into Hollywood and Vine…you’re trashing a strawman…

]]> By: Mark http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523885 Mark Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:40:27 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523885 Ryan, the fact that you refuse to recognize the changed situation in Iraq is what is flabbergasting to me. The Iraqi government has not asked us to get out, believe it or not. They are talking about a timetable that is at the end of 2010. This is not news that is hidden from sight. It is available to anyone who can read. You're smarter than this. Dial down the outrage and keep up with current events... Ryan, the fact that you refuse to recognize the changed situation in Iraq is what is flabbergasting to me. The Iraqi government has not asked us to get out, believe it or not. They are talking about a timetable that is at the end of 2010.

This is not news that is hidden from sight. It is available to anyone who can read.

You’re smarter than this. Dial down the outrage and keep up with current events…

]]> By: Ryan http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523851 Ryan Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:58:11 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523851 We are making things worse by occupying a country full of people who clearly do not want us there. Let's set aside "benchmarks" for a second and try to think clearly about the self-determination we've tried so hard to pretend we want for the Iraqi people. They are trying to exercise it and conservative bloggers, of all people, have the nerve to tell them they aren't "ready". This cultural chauvinism is mind-boggling. If the Chinese army invaded the US mainland and proceeded to tell us they would leave when we're ready to govern ourselves regardless of our wishes, you guys (and I) would go absolutely ballistic. It is no one's business but ours when we get to govern ourselves. The very idea that we have the authority to tell the Iraqis we'll leave when we're good and ready or to question their ability to govern themselves is downright Kipling-esque. This is a basic moral question - should the Iraqi government have the authority to govern the affairs of Iraq? This isn't a tough one. We are making things worse by occupying a country full of people who clearly do not want us there. Let’s set aside “benchmarks” for a second and try to think clearly about the self-determination we’ve tried so hard to pretend we want for the Iraqi people. They are trying to exercise it and conservative bloggers, of all people, have the nerve to tell them they aren’t “ready”.

This cultural chauvinism is mind-boggling. If the Chinese army invaded the US mainland and proceeded to tell us they would leave when we’re ready to govern ourselves regardless of our wishes, you guys (and I) would go absolutely ballistic. It is no one’s business but ours when we get to govern ourselves. The very idea that we have the authority to tell the Iraqis we’ll leave when we’re good and ready or to question their ability to govern themselves is downright Kipling-esque.

This is a basic moral question – should the Iraqi government have the authority to govern the affairs of Iraq? This isn’t a tough one.

]]> By: Bob from Ohio http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523815 Bob from Ohio Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:48:54 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523815 How are we making things worse? Now, today. Not last year or 2006 or 2003. How are we making things worse?

Now, today. Not last year or 2006 or 2003.

]]> By: too many steves http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523799 too many steves Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:06:13 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523799 We are not making the situation worse by any logical, reasonable, and responsible measure of such things. Mark: you don't speak for me when you talk about being "dispirited". Then again, I'm not much of McCain supporter. We are not making the situation worse by any logical, reasonable, and responsible measure of such things.

Mark: you don’t speak for me when you talk about being “dispirited”. Then again, I’m not much of McCain supporter.

]]> By: Ryan http://informedspeculation.com/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/comment-page-1/#comment-523798 Ryan Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:04:21 +0000 http://decision08.net/2008/07/22/lets-not-lose-sight-of-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-523798 I'm flabbergasted by the way conservatives have reacted to all of this talk from Maliki's government. How many times does everyone have to say this to you before it sinks in? <b>We are making the situation in Iraq worse, and they want us to leave because they don't like us occupying their territory.</b> It's not a "vindication" of our "strategy" when - whether for electoral politics reasons or any other kind - the leader of Iraq tells us to kindly get the hell out. And it's just plain not our job to say things as profoundly and jaw-droppingly arrogant as "I would hope that the Iraqis are not foolish enough to push for a withdrawal if, when the time comes, they are not ready themselves." Seriously, Mark, the only rational response a citizen of Iraq could have to a statement like that is "fu** you". You don't get to tell the democratically-elected governments of other countries when they are or are not ready to be free of our troops. And you certainly don't get to tell the voters of those countries. Nor does George Bush, or John McCain, or anyone else. Iraqis are people, not possessions. I’m flabbergasted by the way conservatives have reacted to all of this talk from Maliki’s government. How many times does everyone have to say this to you before it sinks in? We are making the situation in Iraq worse, and they want us to leave because they don’t like us occupying their territory. It’s not a “vindication” of our “strategy” when – whether for electoral politics reasons or any other kind – the leader of Iraq tells us to kindly get the hell out.

And it’s just plain not our job to say things as profoundly and jaw-droppingly arrogant as “I would hope that the Iraqis are not foolish enough to push for a withdrawal if, when the time comes, they are not ready themselves.” Seriously, Mark, the only rational response a citizen of Iraq could have to a statement like that is “fu** you”. You don’t get to tell the democratically-elected governments of other countries when they are or are not ready to be free of our troops. And you certainly don’t get to tell the voters of those countries. Nor does George Bush, or John McCain, or anyone else. Iraqis are people, not possessions.

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