If you want to use Barry Goldwater as the epitome of true conservatism, then there is a wide gap between his philosophy and that of Bush and the GOP. I think there is a lot to admire about true conservatism, but very little to admire about Bush and the current crop of Republicans. (Excepting John McCain, who I do admire.)

I was not referring to Bush, but rather to the entire Republican Party. If Bush isn’t a conservative, as Chris argues and I’m willing to grant, then neither are the vast majority of Republicans. Certainly John McCain isn’t. Which makes me wonder what use there is in arguing about who’s conservative and who isn’t. Shorter version: if Bush isn’t really a conservative, then the Republican Party isn’t really the party of conservatives.

This, of course, is something I have been arguing for well over a year now – there is nothing even slightly conservative about warring for “freedom”, torturing human beings, or using the power of the state to spy on citizens – but it’s nice to know we’re all in agreement here.

For once, Ryan and I are in nearly perfect agreement here. I wouldn’t phrase some of what he said quite that way, but that’s a matter of degree, rather than a matter of disagreement. And while this information may be a surprise to people like Peter, it’s no surprise to conservatives. Ryan’s point is exactly why Republicans got their hats handed to them in 2006. It wasn’t that Democrats put really wonderful people on the ballot, or that the Democratic base was just rushing out to destroy Republicans, it was that conservatives had lost faith in the Republican party. I still haven’t regained my faith. And I’ve had many an unpleasant discussion with phone operatives for the RNC who have called me up asking for money.

I don’t remember if I’ve said this here before, so I apologize for repeating myself if I have. This year I am strongly considering voting for President and to re-elect my Governor (who has actually been a conservative), and leaving the rest of my ballot blank. There are no down-ballot Republicans that I know of that deserve my vote, especially my Congressman. I’d lump my Republican Senator in there too, but lucky for him, he’s not up for reelection this year.

And, for ages, the only reason I was even considering voting for John McCain (because I don’t consider him a conservative) is because I don’t want any more Ginsbergs on the Supreme Court. I’m not foolish enough to believe that with the Senate he’s going to face that he’d nominate another Scalia or Roberts, but anybody he’s going to put up there will have to be better than a Ginsberg (that’s my opinion, of course, and I know that if you’re on the left, you’d feel exactly the opposite…you’re entitled).

Fortunately, Sarah Palin IS a true conservative, or pretty close. There are things I disagree with her on, but far fewer than most Republicans. I don’t know how she feels about illegal immigration, but I suspect that her views are closer to mine than to John McCain’s.

Ok, that’s all I have to say on this thread.

Obama was a party hack, developing and then delivering the votes for the machine; and simply doing the nitty-gritty work in the vinyards of Chicago machine politics…

“we’re supposed to believe that eight years in the White House (with control of Congress for six and the Supreme Court for roughly forever) aren’t enough for us to establish what the Republican Party really wants to do with the levers of government.”

I was not referring to Bush, but rather to the entire Republican Party. If Bush isn’t a conservative, as Chris argues and I’m willing to grant, then neither are the vast majority of Republicans. Certainly John McCain isn’t. Which makes me wonder what use there is in arguing about who’s conservative and who isn’t. Shorter version: if Bush isn’t really a conservative, then the Republican Party isn’t really the party of conservatives.

This, of course, is something I have been arguing for well over a year now – there is nothing even slightly conservative about warring for “freedom”, torturing human beings, or using the power of the state to spy on citizens – but it’s nice to know we’re all in agreement here.

Doesn’t the Congress get some of the credit/blame for the current state of affairs – however it is you view them? You can’t let the last two year’s Democrat controlled Congress off the hook while simultaneously blaming everything on the Republican controlled Congress of 2000 – 2006. Well, I guess you can but you would be wrong to do so.

Man! The more you guys talk the less I like any of these characters!